2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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MKlaus
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Joined: 30 Aug 2020, 08:22

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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i am not surprised by the possibilities of one team having done a job that puts them leaps and bounds ahead in an engineering world where innovation is the key in any given, constrained set of regulations. what always baffled me is, how is it possible for different car and engine philosophies, being worked on by people of varying IQs and ideas, converge so close, to the extent of a few tenths. it still does.
the argument that rules are constrained and force convergence is too far fetched and self consoling as a good replacement for lack of understanding of human creativity.
change in rules is an opportunity to stand out, even if the rules are intended to close the performance gulf. if you have a poor resource pool or an intelligent but fatigued resource pool, then the results are mediocre.
i often hear some of my own people saying it's impossible when a new, aggressive target is given in the realm of of engineering, but once they get out of that mental block, they found ways to achieve it.

MKlaus
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Joined: 30 Aug 2020, 08:22

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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e30ernest wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 02:17
Just_a_fan wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 01:10
nzjrs wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 01:01


Oh totally agree, but the explicit admission is a first from a top team. Previously we only had speculation from Gary Anderson or Eddie Jordan or Matthew Carter about "what they would/could have done" when they were in charge.
The one issue that seems to be ignored here is that Mercedes felt they had to sandbag. Why? Because if they were too good, the FIA/FOM would have changed the rules to prevent them being too good. That's the stand out for me. That's a condemnation of everything bad about F1 from recent times. The admission that the game is rigged to fake a competition between teams.
On Andy Cowell's interview, I remember him mentioning the same reliability concerns that Paddy mentions here. Only difference though is that Andy gave that as the primary reason for going for more conservative modes, while Paddy is implying they did it to hide performance.

I can't remember if it was Andy or someone else at Merc that mentioned that they used the engine advantage to keep their opponents focused on their engines while hiding the aero advantage of their car. Paddy seems to to corroborate that (admitting the Merc had the best chassis as well).

Sandbagging seems to be prevalent in racing anyway. Hiding that pace advantage for as long as you can will help you stay ahead of the curve. Looks like in F1 it does both in terms of performance, and in staying ahead of the rules.
in the 2014 bahrain racing debrief last year with james vowels, he mentioned of his involvement in turning down engine to conceal performance. also, earlier this year, it was their chief designer john owens, in an interview to the-race.com that mentioned about how they put engine ahead of chassis in media to hide the chassis innovation.

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nzjrs
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Joined: 07 Jan 2015, 11:21
Location: Redacted

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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SiLo wrote:
28 Apr 2021, 13:36
Very interesting article about how Mercedes were doing their best to hide their pace advantage back in 2014. Some excellent quotes in there.

https://www.racefans.net/2021/04/28/fea ... idle-mode/
Another angle from this article is that it is an almost admission that Mercedes likely also limited their customer teams from running their PUs in those higher modes - something that Matthew Carter has often said on the missed apex show, but that many people didn't believe.

zibby43
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Joined: 04 Mar 2017, 12:16

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Article on James Allison's successor at Mercedes . . . 'Fearsomely good engineer' Mike Elliott:

https://the-race.com/formula-1/who-is-m ... placement/

Excerpt:

Elliott would not have risen to his imminent rank without the necessary credentials as an engineer but he is also touted as one of the founding members of Mercedes’ ultra-successful culture of working.

That is an important element of his appointment as the new technical director because in addition to commanding the respect of his peers he can also be trusted to lead by example.

“He works as one of the group of people that really have built the foundation on which these championships have been won,” says Allison.

erudite450
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Joined: 14 Mar 2019, 13:50

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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I don't know know why they didn't look outside to fill any of these vacancies - Brackley and Brixwort alike. Inbreeding is not a good thing, take the bulldog for example - credit to Silicon Valley TV show :D :D

e30ernest
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Joined: 29 Feb 2012, 08:47

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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erudite450 wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 08:11
I don't know know why they didn't look outside to fill any of these vacancies - Brackley and Brixwort alike. Inbreeding is not a good thing, take the bulldog for example - credit to Silicon Valley TV show :D :D
Perhaps inbreeding is their strength. Just like how the best dogs are products of inbreeding. :mrgreen:

mkay
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Joined: 21 May 2010, 21:30

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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zibby43 wrote:
28 Apr 2021, 09:06
dans79 wrote:
28 Apr 2021, 06:31
zibby43 wrote:
28 Apr 2021, 02:44
Pretty optimistic outlook for Merc, as outlined by Scarbs:

https://youtu.be/2Rcj2x5tpu8
I think the biggest step they will take, will be being able to switch on the softer compounds without sacrificing the degradation advantage they have right now.
100% agreed. In terms of overall team performance, Bottas needs to get comfortable with the car. As Scarbs said, Hamilton is able to extract the performance out of it despite it being a bit on a knife's edge like the '18 car.

Also saw where Horner said, via The Race, that he expects Portimao to play to Merc's strengths. I agree with his assessment, but it still should be pretty close in quali.
I think they are still lacking in fast (front-limited) corners and rapid change of directions, like T5-6 in Bahrain, or the Villeneuve and Tamburello complexes in Imola. They definitely need to buff up rear downforce otherwise it will start to hurt later on this season.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -portugal/

AMuS thinks track layout and upgrades should put Red Bull on top. AMuS doesn't know if Merc will bring any upgrades to this GP. Not sure I agree with their assessment that Portimao has "many quick changes of direction". AMuS does bring out a good point in that grip levels should be significantly improved from last year's GP now that the tarmac has settled in which could help Merc.

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El Scorchio
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Joined: 29 Jul 2019, 12:41

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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erudite450 wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 08:11
I don't know know why they didn't look outside to fill any of these vacancies - Brackley and Brixwort alike. Inbreeding is not a good thing, take the bulldog for example - credit to Silicon Valley TV show :D :D
I believe I read they made this move and created Allison’s new role in order to be able to promote some deserving people.

erudite450
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Joined: 14 Mar 2019, 13:50

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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El Scorchio wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 10:32
erudite450 wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 08:11
I don't know know why they didn't look outside to fill any of these vacancies - Brackley and Brixwort alike. Inbreeding is not a good thing, take the bulldog for example - credit to Silicon Valley TV show :D :D
I believe I read they made this move and created Allison’s new role in order to be able to promote some deserving people.
That makes sense

littlebigcat
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Joined: 06 May 2017, 19:47

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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I believe Allison confirmed that. His new position was created to allow someone some career progression, otherwise the organisation stagnates and people start looking elsewhere.

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Juzh
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Joined: 06 Oct 2012, 08:45

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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F1Krof wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 00:17
nzjrs wrote:
28 Apr 2021, 21:58
SiLo wrote:
28 Apr 2021, 13:36
Very interesting article about how Mercedes were doing their best to hide their pace advantage back in 2014. Some excellent quotes in there.

https://www.racefans.net/2021/04/28/fea ... idle-mode/
Finally we have black and white evidence of the culture of sandbagging inside Mercedes. Worth keeping in mind when hearing Toto speak.
In hindsight, I think they should have done the same in 2020. If they played this game a not qualify 8 tenths ahead of your nearest competitor, they wouldn't have introduced this silly rule to ban engine maps.
They did. In spain they didn't use strat 2 in Q3 (most powerful mode), instead they used strat 3 which is the next best thing that they use for Q1 and sometimes for Q2 if they feel it's enough. In spain they figured it was enough even for Q3.

zibby43
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Joined: 04 Mar 2017, 12:16

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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mkay wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 10:25
zibby43 wrote:
28 Apr 2021, 09:06
dans79 wrote:
28 Apr 2021, 06:31


I think the biggest step they will take, will be being able to switch on the softer compounds without sacrificing the degradation advantage they have right now.
100% agreed. In terms of overall team performance, Bottas needs to get comfortable with the car. As Scarbs said, Hamilton is able to extract the performance out of it despite it being a bit on a knife's edge like the '18 car.

Also saw where Horner said, via The Race, that he expects Portimao to play to Merc's strengths. I agree with his assessment, but it still should be pretty close in quali.
I think they are still lacking in fast (front-limited) corners and rapid change of directions, like T5-6 in Bahrain, or the Villeneuve and Tamburello complexes in Imola. They definitely need to buff up rear downforce otherwise it will start to hurt later on this season.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -portugal/

AMuS thinks track layout and upgrades should put Red Bull on top. AMuS doesn't know if Merc will bring any upgrades to this GP. Not sure I agree with their assessment that Portimao has "many quick changes of direction". AMuS does bring out a good point in that grip levels should be significantly improved from last year's GP now that the tarmac has settled in which could help Merc.
I agree with your assessment and disagree with AMuS’. Kind of a lazy take from them; they’re usually much better.

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F1Krof
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Joined: 22 Feb 2016, 21:17

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Juzh wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 13:15
F1Krof wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 00:17
nzjrs wrote:
28 Apr 2021, 21:58


Finally we have black and white evidence of the culture of sandbagging inside Mercedes. Worth keeping in mind when hearing Toto speak.
In hindsight, I think they should have done the same in 2020. If they played this game a not qualify 8 tenths ahead of your nearest competitor, they wouldn't have introduced this silly rule to ban engine maps.
They did. In spain they didn't use strat 2 in Q3 (most powerful mode), instead they used strat 3 which is the next best thing that they use for Q1 and sometimes for Q2 if they feel it's enough. In spain they figured it was enough even for Q3.
By that time I believe it was already too late. They should've left with Austria 1 and Hungary, probably just call them outliers. But to me, it was Hungary that shocked just about everyone.
Wroom wroom

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Spacepace
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Joined: 25 Nov 2012, 23:44

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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erudite450 wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 11:21
El Scorchio wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 10:32
erudite450 wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 08:11
I don't know know why they didn't look outside to fill any of these vacancies - Brackley and Brixwort alike. Inbreeding is not a good thing, take the bulldog for example - credit to Silicon Valley TV show :D :D
I believe I read they made this move and created Allison’s new role in order to be able to promote some deserving people.
That makes sense
I thought it was so he could still have influence over the technical side of the team without eating up the team budget. Cause it seems to take him off that payroll that is included in the team budgets

mkay
16
Joined: 21 May 2010, 21:30

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -hamilton/

Per AMuS, Bottas' crash cost the team £1m.

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