2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
Hoffman900
Hoffman900
43
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:02 am

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

Post

Unf wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 1:53 pm
djones wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 11:30 pm
As a polar contrast you have somebody like Button or Villeneuve who were only champions because they happened to be in a crazy fast car and were good enough or had the luck to beat only their teammate that year.
It's not a polar - it's the same situation like Hamilton's one but he has this not just for one year, but many years.
He had and has waaaaay better car, and way worse teammates in Mercedes (Rosberg title on 2016 does mean nothing).

I am talking about facts, sorry. And excatly the same we can say about Schumacher on Ferrari era - he had way better car and way worse teammates. Don't you agree?

IMO we can say a lot of glorious words about... let say Usain Bolt - he is a really champion, he was just better than others - simply.

In motorsport it's not that obvious, cars have too much influence on the result.
I would love to see all F1 drivers on equal cars - there we could talking.
Except racing has always been this way. Prost won in dominate cars, so did Vettel, etc. As pointed out elsewhere, the WDC and Manufacturers title have only diverged a few times.

Even swimming, running, etc. The top countries start training them from a young age, with the best coaches, physios, pools, nutritionists, etc. That takes money and those with the most, usually do the best. Jamaica has a good feeder program and prep schools that focus on sprinting.

PhillipM
PhillipM
414
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 2:18 pm
Location: Over the road from Boothy...

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

Post

Unf wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 1:53 pm

IMO we can say a lot of glorious words about... let say Usain Bolt - he is a really champion, he was just better than others - simply.
He was born with better equipment. Lets give him average length legs and see how he does.

User avatar
nevill3
33
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:31 pm
Location: Monaco

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

Post

Unf wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 1:53 pm
djones wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 11:30 pm
As a polar contrast you have somebody like Button or Villeneuve who were only champions because they happened to be in a crazy fast car and were good enough or had the luck to beat only their teammate that year.
It's not a polar - it's the same situation like Hamilton's one but he has this not just for one year, but many years.
He had and has waaaaay better car, and way worse teammates in Mercedes (Rosberg title on 2016 does mean nothing).

I am talking about facts, sorry. And excatly the same we can say about Schumacher on Ferrari era - he had way better car and way worse teammates. Don't you agree?

IMO we can say a lot of glorious words about... let say Usain Bolt - he is a really champion, he was just better than others - simply.

In motorsport it's not that obvious, cars have too much influence on the result.
I would love to see all F1 drivers on equal cars - there we could talking.
By saying he had worst team mates surely means he is better than them so deserves all the titles because he has more talent
Sent from my Commodore PET in 1978

User avatar
Unf
-8
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:56 pm

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

Post

nevill3 wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 4:48 pm
By saying he had worst team mates surely means he is better than them so deserves all the titles because he has more talent
More talent than... this one particular guy. Whether or not he has more talent today than Verstappen, Leclerc or Russel - we don't know and will never know cause of politics.

User avatar
nevill3
33
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:31 pm
Location: Monaco

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

Post

Unf wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 4:54 pm
nevill3 wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 4:48 pm
By saying he had worst team mates surely means he is better than them so deserves all the titles because he has more talent
More talent than... this one particular guy. Whether or not he has more talent today than Verstappen, Leclerc or Russel - we don't know and will never know cause of politics.
This one particular guy being.....WDC Alonso, WDC Button, WDC Rosberg....Bottas in the same car :-k
Sent from my Commodore PET in 1978

Mchamilton
Mchamilton
9
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:16 pm

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

Post

Unf wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 4:54 pm
nevill3 wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 4:48 pm
By saying he had worst team mates surely means he is better than them so deserves all the titles because he has more talent
More talent than... this one particular guy. Whether or not he has more talent today than Verstappen, Leclerc or Russel - we don't know and will never know cause of politics.
We'll never know simply because that's how f1 is. As it's always been. If you're not a fan of this fundamental part of the sport...then go watch indycar or f2.. But guess what, they always so dominant teams despite being spec cars.. So go figure.

Hoffman900
Hoffman900
43
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:02 am

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

Post

Mchamilton wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 5:11 pm
Unf wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 4:54 pm
nevill3 wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 4:48 pm
By saying he had worst team mates surely means he is better than them so deserves all the titles because he has more talent
More talent than... this one particular guy. Whether or not he has more talent today than Verstappen, Leclerc or Russel - we don't know and will never know cause of politics.
We'll never know simply because that's how f1 is. As it's always been. If you're not a fan of this fundamental part of the sport...then go watch indycar or f2.. But guess what, they always so dominant teams despite being spec cars.. So go figure.
Exactly.

Scott Dixon in Indy Car (and he’s still winning) and Jimmy Johnson dominated NASCAR in his day.

Racing in spec classes here in the States, the same drivers and prep shops are always at the front and winning. There is a reason for that. It looks close on paper, but .2s is a mile away.

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
525
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

Post

PhillipM wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 4:23 pm
Unf wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 1:53 pm

IMO we can say a lot of glorious words about... let say Usain Bolt - he is a really champion, he was just better than others - simply.
He was born with better equipment. Lets give him average length legs and see how he does.
I am sprint fan.

The best Sprinters traditionally have been average height. You could have the longest legs in the world... Good luck turning them over at a rate that Usain does!
Sprintings is all about explosiveness, stride length and turnover and maintaining that.
Tall sprinters are actually more difficult to train because they normally lack explosiveness and turnover speed. Bolt has managed to compensate with his sprint genius Coach Glenn Mills.
What i am saying is Bolt is not just just about leng legs. It's talent and a good team behind him.
.. OG.. OG.. OG.. OG..

hurril
hurril
66
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 5:25 pm
PhillipM wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 4:23 pm
Unf wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 1:53 pm

IMO we can say a lot of glorious words about... let say Usain Bolt - he is a really champion, he was just better than others - simply.
He was born with better equipment. Lets give him average length legs and see how he does.
I am sprint fan.

The best Sprinters traditionally have been average height. You could have the longest legs in the world... Good luck turning them over at a rate that Usain does!
Sprintings is all about explosiveness, stride length and turnover and maintaining that.
Tall sprinters are actually more difficult to train because they normally lack explosiveness and turnover speed. Bolt has managed to compensate with his sprint genius Coach Glenn Mills.
What i am saying is Bolt is not just just about leng legs. It's talent and a good team behind him.
Underappreciated facts about his genious. Very fast and consistent. He was over 40km/t for a longer duration than anyone and accelerated ok for such a tall guy.

User avatar
proteus
64
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:35 pm

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

Post

djones wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 11:30 pm
Unf wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 6:31 pm
His and Schumacher's records have the same problem - they did it mostly beacuse of having way much better car and way worse teammates. Don't want to say that Hamilton is slow - even I must admit that he is brilliant driver but... there always will be "but" next to his numbers.
I know your just 'trolling' for a bit of fun.

But as a serious reply to the subject....

It does not matter what sport it is, no champion or the greatest at something has a 100% perfect record or was only ever on the back foot and having to drag a win out of not having the best team or hardware etc. Aside from the fact the best people usually find a way to also be in the best teams, it's very hard (impossible I'd say) to deny Hamilton's achievements as they go over so many years.

As a polar contrast you have somebody like Button or Villeneuve who were only champions because they happened to be in a crazy fast car and were good enough or had the luck to beat only their teammate that year.
Saying Button was good only with the best car is a bold statement...If we would look at Lewis till the end of 2013, he would not be nothing special by your standards either. There are rare champions that achieved their titles with lesser equipment. And i do dare to say, that all titles that Lewis achieved with Mercedes, he did it with the best car and team on the grid. His purest title is from 08 in my opinion. Especially since Paddy Lowe revealed they needed to turn the car down from 2014, since the advantage was so massive.

He is one of the best, but also has by far the best team and car in his disposal. Schumacher was in the same position in his peak at the Ferrari, but lesser amount.
If i would get the money to start my own F1 team, i would revive Arrows

Mr.S
Mr.S
2
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:21 pm

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

Post

Unf wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 1:53 pm
djones wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 11:30 pm
As a polar contrast you have somebody like Button or Villeneuve who were only champions because they happened to be in a crazy fast car and were good enough or had the luck to beat only their teammate that year.
It's not a polar - it's the same situation like Hamilton's one but he has this not just for one year, but many years.
He had and has waaaaay better car, and way worse teammates in Mercedes (Rosberg title on 2016 does mean nothing).

I am talking about facts, sorry. And excatly the same we can say about Schumacher on Ferrari era - he had way better car and way worse teammates. Don't you agree?

IMO we can say a lot of glorious words about... let say Usain Bolt - he is a really champion, he was just better than others - simply.

In motorsport it's not that obvious, cars have too much influence on the result.
I would love to see all F1 drivers on equal cars - there we could talking.
MSC won Champinship with Benetton he has had no business winning. Half of his race wins in the 90s shouldn't have been his. MSC dragged Ferrari in his 1st 2-3 years as well, wasn't a great car. They really came into their own from 1999.

If BMW williams were a half competent team without the Diva Ralf & inconsistent Montoya, they could have won with aero improvements. They had by far the best engine & it is one of the best engines in the last couple of decades. Mclaren 2003 was also a much better car than Ferrari IMO but the car just had terrible reliability & Ferrari had MSC on the wheel & Ross Brawn with the strategy calls. That was a huge miss for Mclaren as was 2005 for them. Nowhere near as dominant as the Mercedes era.

Schumi had 69 odd poles for 91 wins, often winning races he had no busy winning, specially in the 90s. Hamilton has a 100 poles & a little less win. BTW Lewis Hamilton is an alltime great with Senna, Schumacher, Prost, Fangio (difficult to compare eras). He has been almost flawless this year. But Hamilton in his peak tied with Alonso on points in his debut season & lost to Button in Mclaren & to Rosberg on Mercedes.

On pure speed especially over 1 lap, he is up there with Senna, possibly quicker than Schumacher but everyone has chinks in their armour. Schumacher had too & Hamilton has too. Hope Hamilton gets Russel as his team-mate in 2022, it will be such a great fight & interesting for fans, raw speed of Russel vs Experience & Speed of Hamilton !

PhillipM
PhillipM
414
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 2:18 pm
Location: Over the road from Boothy...

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 5:25 pm

I am sprint fan.

The best Sprinters traditionally have been average height. You could have the longest legs in the world... Good luck turning them over at a rate that Usain does!
Sprintings is all about explosiveness, stride length and turnover and maintaining that.
Tall sprinters are actually more difficult to train because they normally lack explosiveness and turnover speed. Bolt has managed to compensate with his sprint genius Coach Glenn Mills.
What i am saying is Bolt is not just just about leng legs. It's talent and a good team behind him.
I think you just hit on the point I was making on both sides :wink:

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
525
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

Post

proteus wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 6:29 pm
Saying Button was good only with the best car is a bold statement...
Agreed. Button is very underrated IMO. Not one of the greats but definitely a solid champion despite the fact he started his campaign with a dominant car. Button has always showed well against fast rivals.
If we would look at Lewis till the end of 2013, he would not be nothing special by your standards either. There are rare champions that achieved their titles with lesser equipment. And i do dare to say, that all titles that Lewis achieved with Mercedes, he did it with the best car and team on the grid.
Disagreed. Lewis had a competitive rival in the same car for four years. For two and half years faced Ferrari who was arguably the faster car. He wasn't just sailing away into the sunset without any opposition.
His purest title is from 08 in my opinion. Especially since Paddy Lowe revealed they needed to turn the car down from 2014, since the advantage was so massive.
Nah.. No Lewis Hamilton fan really rates 2008 that much. He wont on being better than Massa yes, but it wasn't really a year of sublime performance. He was scruffy, still coming into form to the beast that he is now. I would actually say 2012 was the year Lewis came of age as a driver.
He is one of the best, but also has by far the best team and car in his disposal. Schumacher was in the same position in his peak at the Ferrari, but lesser amount.
The best sportsmen deserve the best equipment and the best teams deserve the best drivers. Why should it be any other way? And what do you mean "by far? " compared to past champions? Clearly not (see Senna Prost, Mansell Schumacher.. Crazy dominant cars, with a bit of shine taken by reliability in those times). If compared to his rival today though no one is sure which car is really the best one this season it is that close. Max is learning now like Vettel did in 2017 and 2018 that to beat Lewis Hamilton you need car that is not equal to his, but one that is dominant.

I wont even start the Schumacher vs Hamilton debate. Barichello could never do what Valterri did today. Wasn't allowed. Schumacher had engines and tyres built for him. Different ball game that was back then.
.. OG.. OG.. OG.. OG..

Diesel
Diesel
75
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:27 pm
Location: ...

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

Post

Poor effort from Bottas this weekend in terms of driving for the team. Too slow to make an impact on Verstappen in terms of strategy and fastest lap, and held Hamilton up too! I'd be astonished to see Bottas in a Mercedes next year.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

"Unbelievable how silly this Formula 1 is these days, with this stupid overtakes."
—Sebastian Vettel, 2012 US GP

User avatar
proteus
64
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:35 pm

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 8:12 pm
proteus wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 6:29 pm
Saying Button was good only with the best car is a bold statement...
Agreed. Button is very underrated IMO. Not one of the greats but definitely a solid champion despite the fact he started his campaign with a dominant car. Button has always showed well against fast rivals.
If we would look at Lewis till the end of 2013, he would not be nothing special by your standards either. There are rare champions that achieved their titles with lesser equipment. And i do dare to say, that all titles that Lewis achieved with Mercedes, he did it with the best car and team on the grid.
Disagreed. Lewis had a competitive rival in the same car for four years. For two and half years faced Ferrari who was arguably the faster car. He wasn't just sailing away into the sunset without any opposition.
His purest title is from 08 in my opinion. Especially since Paddy Lowe revealed they needed to turn the car down from 2014, since the advantage was so massive.
Nah.. No Lewis Hamilton fan really rates 2008 that much. He wont on being better than Massa yes, but it wasn't really a year of sublime performance. He was scruffy, still coming into form to the beast that he is now. I would actually say 2012 was the year Lewis came of age as a driver.
He is one of the best, but also has by far the best team and car in his disposal. Schumacher was in the same position in his peak at the Ferrari, but lesser amount.
The best sportsmen deserve the best equipment and the best teams deserve the best drivers. Why should it be any other way? And what do you mean "by far? " compared to past champions? Clearly not (see Senna Prost, Mansell Schumacher.. Crazy dominant cars, with a bit of shine taken by reliability in those times). If compared to his rival today though no one is sure which car is really the best one this season it is that close. Max is learning now like Vettel did in 2017 and 2018 that to beat Lewis Hamilton you need car that is not equal to his, but one that is dominant.

I wont even start the Schumacher vs Hamilton debate. Barichello could never do what Valterri did today. Wasn't allowed. Schumacher had engines and tyres built for him. Different ball game that was back then.
Until 2014 he had stiff competition from a wide range of drivers/teams and out of that he got 1 title in 7 seasons with different quality of machinery to his disposal. Since 2014 he faced a Nico Rosberg and 2 seasons with somewhat competitive Ferrari and bagged 6 more. No one in history of the sport had such a dominant car and team available for such long period of time.
If i would get the money to start my own F1 team, i would revive Arrows