2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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NL_Fer
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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So Pirelli says that the tire pressure or suspension geometry is moving over the specified limits when the car is in motion.

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BassVirolla
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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To me, it reads like Pirelli is likely not able to make a tire which can withstand the very variable conditions a tire has to endure. Looks like is not enough providing a set of usage rules and monitoring them to prevent the failures...

Obviously, said variable conditions are present in road as in race. It would be intolerable to have a road tire with such narrow usable margin. Much worse if we are speaking about F1 racing.

I hope my point is well explained, I'm not very fluent in english...

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Big Tea
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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"monitoring operating conditions during a race weekend" sound like they are putting the blame on the teams for 'pushing' the operating window? What a surprise, I did not expect that (much)
How can I learn Braille for 'Danger do not touch'

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godlameroso
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Let's think about this. The changes that Pirelli made to the tire are on the tread because the tread was delaminating correct? They added an extra kg on the outer part of the tire, the part of the tire that spins the fastest. The blow outs happened at high sustained speed. All the failures were the same torn sidewall. If you add more mass to the outside of a spinning object, that mass gets multiplied due to centrifugal force.

What if Pirelli when considering to strengthen the sidewall along with the increased mass of the tread said, "nah It'll be fine". Would this lead to more force stretching the sidewall and possibly tearing it at speed?

How would low pressure affect this?

Just throwing it out there for discussion's sake.
Saishū kōnā

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BassVirolla
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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godlameroso wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:50 pm
Let's think about this. The changes that Pirelli made to the tire are on the tread because the tread was delaminating correct? They added an extra kg on the outer part of the tire, the part of the tire that spins the fastest. The blow outs happened at high sustained speed. All the failures were the same torn sidewall. If you add more mass to the outside of a spinning object, that mass gets multiplied due to centrifugal force.

What if Pirelli when considering to strengthen the sidewall along with the increased mass of the tread said, "nah It'll be fine". Would this lead to more force stretching the sidewall and possibly tearing it at speed?

How would low pressure affect this?

Just throwing it out there for discussion's sake.
Very interesting thread of discussion... but we are slipping offtopic... I'll quote you in the tires forum / thread.

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Juzh
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Wouter wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:54 pm
More from Motorsport.
In a bid to get to the bottom of what happened, Pirelli flew the tyres back to its Milan headquarters for a detailed analysis in its laboratories.

On Tuesday, the Italian tyre company issued a release making it clear that the failures were not caused by a production fault, wear nor delamination.

It went on reveal that the blowouts were instead caused by a circumferential break on the inner sidewall of the tyres, rather than being the result of a cut from debris.

The statement suggested that the breaks in the sidewall were likely caused by the ‘running condition of the tyre’ – which is probably related to either tyre pressures or the temperatures they were run at.

“This analysis also took in the tyres used by other cars in the race, which had the same or a higher number of laps on them compared to the ones that were damaged,” it said.

“The process established that there was no production or quality defect on any of the tyres; nor was there any sign of fatigue or delamination. The causes of the two left-rear tyre failures on the Aston Martin and Red Bull cars have been clearly identified. In each case, this was down to a circumferential break on the inner sidewall, which can be related to the running conditions of the tyre, in spite of the prescribed starting parameters (minimum pressure and maximum blanket temperature) having been followed.”

Pirelli revealed that new pressure and tyre blanket protocols were to be put in place to ensure there could be no repeat of the Baku problem, with teams having already been informed by the FIA of what new processes must be followed.

While Pirelli suggests how the tyres were run triggered the incidents, Red Bull issued a statement insisting it followed all the recommendations given to it.
It said: “We have worked closely with Pirelli and the FIA during their investigation into Max’s tyre failure on lap 47 of the Azerbaijan Grand Prix and can confirm that no car fault was found. We adhered to Pirelli’s tyre parameters at all times and will continue to follow their guidance.

"We are grateful that following the weekend’s high speed impacts no drivers were injured.”
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/pire ... n/6572225/
Basically saying "our tyres are crap and we're incompetent". End of story. More sudden rule changes mid season, gotta love it. :roll:

zibby43
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Merc suffered from the good ol’ Pirelli construction last year for the British GP when both cars almost DNF’d before Hamilton 3-wheeled it to the finish.

Then, Pirelli said it was due to a long stint. Now, they’re saying teams are gaming the tire pressures or suspension kinematics.

Pirelli do a fine enjoying job making the product that F1 requests, but there’s no question that the product would be substantially better without that mandate and with other tire competitors.

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Wouter
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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zibby43 wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:59 am
Pirelli do a fine enjoying job making the product that F1 requests, but there’s no question that the product would be substantially better without that mandate and with other tire competitors.
It remains inexplicable why Hankook's competing tender was rejected!? :?:

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nzjrs
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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JordanMugen wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:21 am
zibby43 wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:59 am
Pirelli do a fine enjoying job making the product that F1 requests, but there’s no question that the product would be substantially better without that mandate and with other tire competitors.
It remains inexplicable why Hankook's competing tender was rejected!? :?:
Probably because it was more expensive, but I think that was the plan by FIA.

The tender was a scam, it was originally for 1 (or 2?) years of the 13 inch tires, then the switch to 18 inch. Who would possibly be able to tender that competitively, two different tire generations!

Covid disrupted things a bit, but they scam had already taken place.

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RZS10
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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And all the teams technically had contracts with Pirelli so no one could have provided cars for testing with Hankook, the framework was already skewed in Pirelli's favour from the get go. Michelin dropped out because they did not want to develop two different tyres.
Juzh wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:23 pm
More sudden rule changes mid season, gotta love it. :roll:
How is making sure that already existing rules/guidelines/limits are being adhered to a "mid season rule change"?

And if RBR "adhered to Pirelli’s tyre parameters at all times" then it shouldn't make any difference anyways, right?

edit: question to the absolute Image who gave the "fan boy circle jerk" rating ... which camp/fan group am i supposedly in? just out of sheer curiosity ... lmao
Last edited by RZS10 on Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Juzh
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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RZS10 wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:50 am
And all the teams technically had contracts with Pirelli so no one could have provided cars for testing with Hankook, the framework was already skewed in Pirelli's favour from the get go. Michelin dropped out because they did not want to develop two different tyres.
Juzh wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:23 pm
More sudden rule changes mid season, gotta love it. :roll:
How is making sure that already existing rules/guidelines/limits are being adhered to a "mid season rule change"?

And if RBR "adhered to Pirelli’s tyre parameters at all times" then it shouldn't make any difference anyways, right?
I'm certain that within those 12 new pages of directives there is not one single team on the grid that will not be affected in some way, even if they all stood within CURRENT suggested operating parameters at all times. There's zero real evidence anyone was employing foul tactics, it's all conjecture from pirellis blame shifting to cover their sorry a**es.

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RZS10
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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But the key operating parameters (which are ultimately the minimum pressures) don't change (?)
From what i could gather it's mostly about how and when the pressures are being checked, and if no one was employing any foul tactics then realistically it shouldn't change much for anyone - unfortunately those TDs are never being made public.
I guess we'll see whether there will be further tyre failures of that kind or if there will be a shift in how well the teams can extract and keep the performance of the tyres.

Still not a "mid season rule change" by any measure, no?

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nzjrs
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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RZS10 wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:47 pm
But the key operating parameters (which are ultimately the minimum pressures) don't change (?)
From what i could gather it's mostly about how and when the pressures are being checked, and if no one was employing any foul tactics then realistically it shouldn't change much for anyone - unfortunately those TDs are never being made public.
I guess we'll see whether there will be further tyre failures of that kind or if there will be a shift in how well the teams can extract and keep the performance of the tyres.

Still not a "mid season rule change" by any measure, no?
To be consistent, if one believed that a change in testing and enforcement (the rear wing flexing tests) was/was not a change in rules or merely <other name for this> then one should also believe that a change in testing and enforcement of tire pressures is also / is also not a 'change in rules' or <other name>.

(not targeted at you, just an observation)

I don't care what people define things as, it's just a shame that FIA reacts by changing <things> based on the social media posts or television interviews of certain members of the F1 paddock - without even requiring, for example, protests to be made or public and technical testable claims to be lodged.

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RZS10
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Hmmm, true.
Especially since various teams have been trying to run lower pressures over the years, so it's not a new issue (same as the wings) and it required two high speed crashes to trigger a reaction, they probably should have brought forward a standardized live pressure reading during some winter break a long time ago.
At the same time i wonder if the FIA would expand the catalogue of enforcement methods so extensively if Pirelli wouldn't have shown at least some convincing evidence to prove their claim - or the other way around: would the FIA do this without having seen anything just based on the word of Pirelli? I wouldn't exclude that possibility but it's not extremely likely.