2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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dans79
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Datco wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:22 pm
"It stipulates that mechanics must react to each stage of the process in a time no sooner than 0.15s"
How would a mechanic know that is now 0.1 sec and he must wait another 0.05sec. I hope FIA-Mercedes are not using timing sensors to measure but expect mechanics to go by "feel" of time
You can look it up if you would like, but the average human beings reaction time to a visual stimuli is ~0.25s.

thus no team should have to worry about violating the limit.
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PhillipM
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Because you wouldn't react that fast anyway.

I think the issue is the FIA believes that some teams are releasing the car with the lollipop man as soon as the wheelgun lights all go green - *NOT* waiting for the jackmen to drop and clear the car - they're assuming the jackman will be out of the way in the reaction time. Of course, that means if there's an issue and the front jack doesn't drop someone gets run over....

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Sieper
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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It was a perfectly synchronized ballet of muscle memory and beautifull to watch. Only possible when everyone pulls it off and pulls it of consistently. As they did. And it was safe as even when they don’t (I have also seen many slower pitstops at RBR, like f.e. The undercut one last weekend at Paul ,Ricard, was 2.4 seconds) they still wait to release. Every time. Since 2013. So it is not playing false and doing things preemptively, it was done quickly and safely. Just takes an enormous amount of practice.

What will come out of this is slower pitstops and suddenly 5 second penalties (or how long the penalty will be) if a wheelgunner makes a mistake. This will happen to all teams, not just redbull. Does that improve the sport?
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

Datco
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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dans79 wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:34 pm
Datco wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:22 pm
"It stipulates that mechanics must react to each stage of the process in a time no sooner than 0.15s"
How would a mechanic know that is now 0.1 sec and he must wait another 0.05sec. I hope FIA-Mercedes are not using timing sensors to measure but expect mechanics to go by "feel" of time
You can look it up if you would like, but the average human beings reaction time to a visual stimuli is ~0.25s.

thus no team should have to worry about violating the limit.
The average driver reaction and lap times will also not be anywhere close to that of an f1 driver. We not talking about average people here. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to know the difference. They are trained athletes. They are not robots pulling the gun away from the wheel for example. The doing these things on real reaction times. And these are procedures of one thing following another, not random. They know what to expect next. Reaction times are completey different under these circumstances.

dans79
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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PhillipM wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:38 pm
Because you wouldn't react that fast anyway.

I think the issue is the FIA believes that some teams are releasing the car with the lollipop man as soon as the wheelgun lights all go green - *NOT* waiting for the jackmen to drop and clear the car - they're assuming the jackman will be out of the way in the reaction time. Of course, that means if there's an issue and the front jack doesn't drop someone gets run over....
I have read several places that the TD refers to article 12.8.4 directly.

for example
https://www.racefans.net/2021/06/24/fia ... pit-stops/
The new directive, TD22A, refers to article 12.8.4 of the technical regulations which imposes restrictions on teams’ pit equipment. It is understood to target the clause which states: “Any sensor systems may only act passively.”
12.8.4
Devices which are used to fit or remove wheel fasteners may only be powered by
compressed air or nitrogen.

Any sensor systems may only act passively.
The article is talking about wheel guns, so I assume the FIA thinks something with the wheel guns is automatic.

For example, if a sensor automatically indicates that a wheel is secured to the car that would violate the article. Indicating a tire is good to go needs to be done by a mechanic pushing a button or some other action.

I think the 0.2 second minimum between the last wheel being secured and the jack dropping is probably a very similar scenario. They probably want to ensure its being triggered by a human.
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Sieper
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Could very well be but if they not once dropped a driver prematurely and they regularly have stops more than 0.5 second slower than their best. How do they control that if not by a human?
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

dans79
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Datco wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:52 pm
dans79 wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:34 pm
Datco wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:22 pm
"It stipulates that mechanics must react to each stage of the process in a time no sooner than 0.15s"
How would a mechanic know that is now 0.1 sec and he must wait another 0.05sec. I hope FIA-Mercedes are not using timing sensors to measure but expect mechanics to go by "feel" of time
You can look it up if you would like, but the average human beings reaction time to a visual stimuli is ~0.25s.

thus no team should have to worry about violating the limit.
The average driver reaction and lap times will also not be anywhere close to that of an f1 driver. We not talking about average people here. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to know the difference. They are trained athletes. They are not robots pulling the gun away from the wheel for example. The doing these things on real reaction times. And these are procedures of one thing following another, not random. They know what to expect next. Reaction times are completey different under these circumstances.
I'm not talking about drivers, im talking about any human reacting to any type of visual stimuli.

The IAAF has a rule that any sprinter that reacts to a starting gun faster than 0.1 seconds will be considered to have false started. They decided on this limit based on extensive testing of world class athletes. You also need to keep in mind that humans react faster to auditory stimuli than visual ones, hence why its 0.15s.
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dans79
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Sieper wrote:
Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:07 am
Could very well be but if they not once dropped a driver prematurely and they regularly have stops more than 0.5 second slower than their best. How do they control that if not by a human?
Even if everything was automatically signaled, you would still have variability, as some processes would still be manual. The drivers have to hit their marks, the jack men have to raise the cars, mechanics have to take the old tires off, and put new ones on. They won't be able to do all those steps perfectly consistent each time!
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JordanMugen
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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dans79 wrote:
Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:10 am
Datco wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:52 pm
dans79 wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:34 pm


You can look it up if you would like, but the average human beings reaction time to a visual stimuli is ~0.25s.

thus no team should have to worry about violating the limit.
The average driver reaction and lap times will also not be anywhere close to that of an f1 driver. We not talking about average people here. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to know the difference. They are trained athletes. They are not robots pulling the gun away from the wheel for example. The doing these things on real reaction times. And these are procedures of one thing following another, not random. They know what to expect next. Reaction times are completey different under these circumstances.
I'm not talking about drivers, im talking about any human reacting to any type of visual stimuli.

The IAAF has a rule that any sprinter that reacts to a starting gun faster than 0.1 seconds will be considered to have false started. They decided on this limit based on extensive testing of world class athletes. You also need to keep in mind that humans react faster to auditory stimuli than visual ones, hence why its 0.15s.
Some are arguing the wheels should be fully torqued before reaction time delay and the car is lowered, which seems very strange.

Anybody who has worked on their car, knows that is possible to torque a wheel on a lowered car just fine. Easier even. While the car is in the air, it only needs to be tightened enough to hold the wheel on.

Surely it is entirely reasonable to start lowering the car, as soon as the wheel gun has started? The important thing is merely for the wheel to be torqued before the driver sets off!

dans79
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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JordanMugen wrote:
Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:00 am
Surely it is entirely reasonable to start lowering the car, as soon as the wheel gun has started?
I think the point of contention is how is the jack man being notified it's time to lower the car. Because a gunner does something to indicate it, or because a sensor automatically tells him to.
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JordanMugen
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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dans79 wrote:
Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:04 am
JordanMugen wrote:
Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:00 am
Surely it is entirely reasonable to start lowering the car, as soon as the wheel gun has started?
I think the point of contention is how is the jack man being notified it's time to lower the car. Because a gunner does something to indicate it, or because a sensor automatically tells him to.
All very well, but I find it entirely logical to lower the car before the wheel is fully torqued.

The rule seems to require the opposite!?
This is 0.15 seconds from the wheel nuts being observed to be tight to the jack man being told to drop the car, and 0.2 seconds from the jacks going down to the driver receiving the go signal.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mcla ... n/6606450/

To the contrary it is logical to lower the car as soon as the wheel gun goes on, surely? As by the time the car is lowered on the ground, the wheel will be fully torqued.

dans79
dans79
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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JordanMugen wrote:
Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:12 am
dans79 wrote:
Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:04 am
JordanMugen wrote:
Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:00 am
Surely it is entirely reasonable to start lowering the car, as soon as the wheel gun has started?
I think the point of contention is how is the jack man being notified it's time to lower the car. Because a gunner does something to indicate it, or because a sensor automatically tells him to.
All very well, but I find it entirely logical to lower the car before the wheel is fully torqued.

The rule seems to require the opposite!?
This is 0.15 seconds from the wheel nuts being observed to be tight to the jack man being told to drop the car, and 0.2 seconds from the jacks going down to the driver receiving the go signal.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mcla ... n/6606450/

To the contrary it is logical to lower the car as soon as the wheel gun goes on, surely? As by the time the car is lowered on the ground, the wheel will be fully torqued.
No one in the press has produced a copy of the official document, so who knows how much they are getting via second hand interpretation.

Note, that I haven't seen a single publication put that section as an actual quote from the document.
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NL_Fer
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Who knows, maybe the jacks drop is triggered automatic if 4 wheel guns start to fasten and the driver gets green light sensors detect 4 torqued wheels.

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nzjrs
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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"Any sensor systems may only act passively" is such a weird definition. What is an example of a passive sensor? How does adding a delay relate to the enforcement of "passive sensors"?

I guess a button is passive? Is a torque sensor non - passive? Is that the distinction they are trying to make?

Why don't they just enforce the passive definition?

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Ryar
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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How Max pipped Lewis in France. I don't know if this was already posted. Very interesting analysis by Ant.

Hakuna Matata!