2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[i70q7m7ghw]

I don’t see why that should be off the table. You can only succesfully lodge a protest if you have provided information the stewards did not yet use when making the original judgement. Since this has been accepted redbull has succeeded in doing so.

They haven't lodged a protest though, it's the right to review. The review might determine there is no new evidence, at which point the investigation won't be reopened. Ferrari did exactly the same after the Canadian GP in 2019.

Also to clarify, they have to provide new evidence i.e. something that was not available to the stewards at the time of the investigation. Simply restating their opinion using evidence such as telemetry which was already available to the stewards is unlikely to succeed.

[PlatinumZealot]

Sorry to interject but who had a 3 year head start and when was that?

Mercedes had a 3 year head start into the hybrid era. I will say they had some good people, but Mercedes burned them out and they left as a result. Too much pressure for results. I imagine one of their lead Aero guys and Andy Cowell jumped ship because of it.

You don't see things like that in RBR, people stay if they can hack it, they give you space to spread your wings and fly so to speak, and if it works out great, if it doesn't, at least you know where you stand.

I don't want to debate that but I will say that just like chassis regs the PU regs were released to all parties at the same time and all manufacturers who had a stake at the time participated in shaping said regulations.

To claim anyone had such a large head start is honestly baseless speculation.

Also can I ask where your insight into the work culture at Merc and RBR comes from?
Don't you think the "burnt out" Mercedes employees and the unlimited resources+ 3year head start are at odds with each other?

He means with Honda.
But I have the feeling that Honda was fully aware of the rules but simply started really late. One or two years. I wouldn't say three. They had a running engine at the end of 2014. But yeah. Two years maybe.. Three at worst.

[ispano6]

Sorry to interject but who had a 3 year head start and when was that?

Mercedes had a 3 year head start into the hybrid era. I will say they had some good people, but Mercedes burned them out and they left as a result. Too much pressure for results. I imagine one of their lead Aero guys and Andy Cowell jumped ship because of it.

You don't see things like that in RBR, people stay if they can hack it, they give you space to spread your wings and fly so to speak, and if it works out great, if it doesn't, at least you know where you stand.

I don't want to debate that but I will say that just like chassis regs the PU regs were released to all parties at the same time and all manufacturers who had a stake at the time participated in shaping said regulations.

To claim anyone had such a large head start is honestly baseless speculation.

Also can I ask where your insight into the work culture at Merc and RBR comes from?
Don't you think the "burnt out" Mercedes employees and the unlimited resources+ 3year head start are at odds with each other?

It isn't baseless speculation, Mercedes had a head start on the engine formula even before it was set. I remember reading that they actually had a hand in proposing aspects of the formula based on what they were already developing. They also benefitted from R&D from their Formula E program as well, which of course wasn't illegal and wasn't factored into cost caps. I imagine all manufacturers will use other parts of the business to offset costs from the F1 cost caps using the personnel movement and R&D of other categories.

Honda in the early years of this formula were hampered by the token system, a toxic relationship, and inexperience. What they've achieved since isn't for naught, as they've acquired a vast amount of R&D that will be applied toward their electrification and hybrid push including biofuels and alongside hydrogen. Shame they are leaving F1 but they've got their priorities. And now they have a parting gift to RedBull which is the 2022 PU and former Mercedes engineers in the Powertrains department who will eventually work on them.

[Jolle]

Mercedes had a 3 year head start into the hybrid era. I will say they had some good people, but Mercedes burned them out and they left as a result. Too much pressure for results. I imagine one of their lead Aero guys and Andy Cowell jumped ship because of it.

You don't see things like that in RBR, people stay if they can hack it, they give you space to spread your wings and fly so to speak, and if it works out great, if it doesn't, at least you know where you stand.

I don't want to debate that but I will say that just like chassis regs the PU regs were released to all parties at the same time and all manufacturers who had a stake at the time participated in shaping said regulations.

To claim anyone had such a large head start is honestly baseless speculation.

Also can I ask where your insight into the work culture at Merc and RBR comes from?
Don't you think the "burnt out" Mercedes employees and the unlimited resources+ 3year head start are at odds with each other?

It isn't baseless speculation, Mercedes had a head start on the engine formula even before it was set. I remember reading that they actually had a hand in proposing aspects of the formula based on what they were already developing. They also benefitted from R&D from their Formula E program as well, which of course wasn't illegal and wasn't factored into cost caps. I imagine all manufacturers will use other parts of the business to offset costs from the F1 cost caps using the personnel movement and R&D of other categories.

Honda in the early years of this formula were hampered by the token system, a toxic relationship, and inexperience. What they've achieved since isn't for naught, as they've acquired a vast amount of R&D that will be applied toward their electrification and hybrid push including biofuels and alongside hydrogen. Shame they are leaving F1 but they've got their priorities. And now they have a parting gift to RedBull which is the 2022 PU and former Mercedes engineers in the Powertrains department who will eventually work on them.

Formula E and Mercedes getting a head start? You do know that Formula E was a full spec series in 2014 and McLaren supplied the motor? HWA didn’t come in to play until a few years ago.

Also, all manufacturers had a say in the engine regs back in 2010/2011. The token system was droppend as soon as it was clear that both Renault and Ferrari were way behind. In anything, Honda wasn’t hampered by the token system because they weren’t competing in 2014, they could have a new spec every week if they wanted to, unlike the other three that has to race their original basic design for years.

[N21]

If I remember correctly Mercedes was technically ahead at the start of the turbo hybrid era because of their truck division and know-how on split turbo design.
They were the only ones trying this approach and it is needless to say that it has been very successful. Separating the turbine and the compressor had performance, cooling, and packaging benefits which put Mercedes miles ahead of the competition.
On the one hand I have a lot of admiration for this technological prowess but on the other hand Mercedes made F1 extremely boring from 2013-2020

[Jolle]

If I remember correctly Mercedes was technically ahead at the start of the turbo hybrid era because of their truck division and know-how on split turbo design.
They were the only ones trying this approach and it is needless to say that it has been very successful. Separating the turbine and the compressor had performance, cooling, and packaging benefits which put Mercedes miles ahead of the competition.
On the one hand I have a lot of admiration for this technological prowess but on the other hand Mercedes made F1 extremely boring from 2013-2020

Both Fiat and Renault also have a lot of turbo knowledge. The biggest “eureka” moment might have been that Daimler discovered early that the PU is nothing like the NA engines and that the basics the normal engine builders used (revs is power), were useless. Just good problem solving, with the tools available.

[Big Tea]

Anything you can say about one team 'having a start' can equally be said about other teams being tardy on the uptake. You can bet most are already well into exploration of what they think the next developments will be. Some will take the right path, others will make a wrong guess or even 'not bother, because its too soon' then end up behind the game.
No one team had information the others did not, some did not either put enough research into it or thought they wee ahead and need not bother.

[Gettingonabit]

Anything you can say about one team 'having a start' can equally be said about other teams being tardy on the uptake. You can bet most are already well into exploration of what they think the next developments will be. Some will take the right path, others will make a wrong guess or even 'not bother, because its too soon' then end up behind the game.
No one team had information the others did not, some did not either put enough research into it or thought they wee ahead and need not bother.

Good post

[Wouter]

https://f1-insider.com/red-bull-max-verstappen-motor-fit-for mel-1-17179/

Aufatmen bei Red Bull: Verstappen und Motor fit

Marko: „Honda hat jetzt grünes Licht für den Unfallmotor gegeben. Er kann weiter eingesetzt werden.
Das heißt, wir müssen jetzt nicht mehr befürchten, irgendwann eine Startplatzstrafe zu bekommen."

Bei Red Bull glaubt man aber nicht, dass Hamilton der Sieg aberkannt wird. Motorsportchef Helmut Marko (78) zu F1-Insider.com:
„Alles ist möglich: Dass Hamiltons Strafe verschärft wird, entschärft wird oder dass er sogar ganz freigesprochen wird.
Es geht uns nur darum, dass die neuen Erkenntnisse berücksichtigt werden. Und dass Max klar sieht, dass wir voll hinter ihm stehen."

Marko: “Honda has now given the green light for the accident engine. It can still be used.
That means we no longer have to worry about getting a starting place penalty at some point. "

At Red Bull, however, they do not believe that Hamilton will be deprived of victory. Head of Motorsport Helmut Marko (78) on F1-Insider.com:
“Everything is possible: that Hamilton's sentence will be tightened, defused or that he will even be completely acquitted.
Our only concern is that the new findings are taken into account. And that Max clearly sees that we fully support him. "

[El Scorchio]

Good news on the engine

[SmallSoldier]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SiLo]

Our only concern is that the new findings are taken into account. And that Max clearly sees that we fully support him. "

As if that wasn't evident enough already?

[LaplacesDemon]

It isn't baseless speculation, Mercedes had a head start on the engine formula even before it was set. I remember reading that they actually had a hand in proposing aspects of the formula based on what they were already developing. They also benefitted from R&D from their Formula E program as well, which of course wasn't illegal and wasn't factored into cost caps. I imagine all manufacturers will use other parts of the business to offset costs from the F1 cost caps using the personnel movement and R&D of other categories.

All manufacturers involved tried to sway the regulations in their favour. VW wanted inline 4 engines, Ferrari wanted V6 and so on. It's how F1 has always worked.

Every single party involved had a say in the regulations and they all would have suggested aspects they were actively researching.

You make it sound like Mercedes single handedly wrote the engine regulations and FIA rubber stamped them.

There are currently no engine cost caps so not sure why bring up this aspect? Their Formula E programme started long after the V6 PU in 2017 iirc so how could that have given them a head start?

I do acknowledge that Honda started later and I agree they were hampered by the token system but it was entirely their decision to join when they did.

[LaplacesDemon]

On the one hand I have a lot of admiration for this technological prowess but on the other hand Mercedes made F1 extremely boring from 2013-2020

Surely you should be blaming the other teams for not mounting a decent challenge? Or Honda for not joining a year sooner?

[Manoah2u]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I honestly wonder whether it's worth the risk. Ferrari took the risk with LeClerc, and look at how that turned out.
Personally, if i were Max, I would rather take the risk of taking a penalty for a race and get a few grid drops, instead of not being able to start a race at all. And frankly, i would take that risk this weekend in hungary (if able to be applied already), since he is still ahead and if he finishes P2, he still is on par on points with Hamilton.

If Mercedes seems too big of a fish to fry in Hungary, i'd take that penalty. If Mercedes is on the back foot, i'd weigh it out carefully to see if you can still manage to win despite getting a grid penalty. Make most use of Perez, Gasly and Tsunoda. Perhaps even tactically play it dirty by making sure Gasly or Tsunoda manage to get in the way of Hamilton during a hot lap in Q3, and play tactics so that they can 'hold up' Hamilton during the race just to make sure you can slow him down enough so Max can beat him.

Completely ignore Bottas meanwhile. It's better to have Max finish ahead of Hamilton but behind Bottas. Then use Perez or Gasly to get a fastest lap in the last lap.

Again, if i had any input in RBR, i'd say 'take a penalty' for Hungary. It's going to be what, 3 grid spot penalty?
So if Max manages to get P1 in Q3, he's gonna start P4. Likely he has the Mercs in front, and then it's going to be either Perez, Norris or LeClerc in P3. If Norris is there, Norris might actually send one inside Bottas or Hamilton in the first corners and with a bit of luck make contact. If it's Perez, then he will move aside without question - or plan to have him overtake Bottas or Hamilton in the first lap, then hold that one up so that Max can pass both.

Net result will be it being hard for Max to beat Hamilton on pace - perhaps tactics will come into play - as he'll build a big enough gap to be out of DRS reach. Either way, Max can finish P2, and perhaps get a fastest lap or deny Hamilton one through Perez or even Gasly, and still come out of Hungary P1 in the WDC standings.

But with zero risks on finishing without points in a future GP.