2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Wouter
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Jolle wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:29 pm
Wouter wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:47 pm
Jolle wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:07 pm


Both were changed in Parc Ferme. From the letters:

As the energy store is a different specification and was changed whilst the car was in parc ferme, the competitor is required to start the race from the pit lane per article 34.8 b) of the FIA Formula One Sporting Regulations.
In which FIA document is that stated?
I can't find what you're posting.
Can you give me the number and description?

Zandvoort, Perez: https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula- ... nformation

Monza, Gasly: https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula- ... nformation
.
This gets a bit silly.

From doc_50 at the Italian GP, Gasly:
As the energy store is a different specification and was changed whilst the car was in
parc ferme, the competitor is required to start the race from the pit lane per article
34.8 b) of the FIA Formula One Sporting Regulations.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... cation.pdf

from the dutch GP, Perez in this case:
As the energy store is a different specification and was changed whilst the car was in
parc ferme, the competitor is required to start the race from the pit lane per article
34.8 b) of the FIA Formula One Sporting Regulations.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... cation.pdf
That is silly indeed. You quoted the stewards decisions and I quoted the technical reports.
Both say something different.
The technical reports don't mention Parc Fermé at all. Thanks.

So if they register a new PU with the 6 parts for the GP weekend at the FIA, he doesn't have to start from the pit lane,
if they change the PU on Friday.

Jolle
Jolle
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Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Wouter wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:41 pm
Jolle wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:29 pm
Wouter wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:47 pm


In which FIA document is that stated?
I can't find what you're posting.
Can you give me the number and description?

Zandvoort, Perez: https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula- ... nformation

Monza, Gasly: https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula- ... nformation
.
This gets a bit silly.

From doc_50 at the Italian GP, Gasly:
As the energy store is a different specification and was changed whilst the car was in
parc ferme, the competitor is required to start the race from the pit lane per article
34.8 b) of the FIA Formula One Sporting Regulations.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... cation.pdf

from the dutch GP, Perez in this case:
As the energy store is a different specification and was changed whilst the car was in
parc ferme, the competitor is required to start the race from the pit lane per article
34.8 b) of the FIA Formula One Sporting Regulations.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... cation.pdf
That is silly indeed. You quoted the stewards decisions and I quoted the technical reports.
Both say something different.
The technical reports don't mention Parc Fermé at all. Thanks.

So if they register a new PU with the 6 parts for the GP weekend at the FIA, he doesn't have to start from the pit lane,
if they change the PU on Friday.
exactly, if you read the technical report correctly and read the line above your quote:

The following part has been replaced during the Parc Fermé yesterday and today by the Red Bull
Racing team for a part with a different specification:

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Wouter
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Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Jolle wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:50 pm
exactly, if you read the technical report correctly and read the line above your quote:

The following part has been replaced during the Parc Fermé yesterday and today by the Red Bull
Racing team for a part with a different specification:
I read it correctly. It says:

The following part has been replaced during the Parc Fermé yesterday and today by the Red Bull
Racing team for a part with a different specification:

Car 11: ES (new)

The part has been replaced with the approval of the FIA technical delegate following a written request
from the team concerned, this being in accordance with Article 34.2 of the 2021 Formula One
Sporting Regulations.
But as the above part is different from the one originally used and also changes have been made to
the set up of the car (with the approval of the FIA technical delegate following a written request), car
number 11 should now be required to start from the pit lane according to Article 34.8b of the 2021
Formula One Sporting Regulations.
It doesn't say anywhere that he has to start from the pit lane because of Parc Fermé!
It says he has to start from the pit lane due to a new specification.

It only says above that this happened during Parc Fermé, that's all.

Jolle
Jolle
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Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Wouter wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:07 pm
Jolle wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:50 pm
exactly, if you read the technical report correctly and read the line above your quote:

The following part has been replaced during the Parc Fermé yesterday and today by the Red Bull
Racing team for a part with a different specification:
I read it correctly. It says:

The following part has been replaced during the Parc Fermé yesterday and today by the Red Bull
Racing team for a part with a different specification:

Car 11: ES (new)

The part has been replaced with the approval of the FIA technical delegate following a written request
from the team concerned, this being in accordance with Article 34.2 of the 2021 Formula One
Sporting Regulations.
But as the above part is different from the one originally used and also changes have been made to
the set up of the car (with the approval of the FIA technical delegate following a written request), car
number 11 should now be required to start from the pit lane according to Article 34.8b of the 2021
Formula One Sporting Regulations.
It doesn't say anywhere that he has to start from the pit lane because of Parc Fermé!
It says he has to start from the pit lane due to a new specification.

It only says above that this happened during Parc Fermé, that's all.
please...
the technical document is called "Parc ferme issues"
the sporting codes referenced are from the Parc ferme rules
There is wording that it's changed during Parc ferme in the tech doc.
it is mentioned that because it's not of the same spec it's referred to the stewards who clearly say it's due to Parc ferme
etc
etc
etc

but no.... "it doen's say it in the one small line of document I only want to read"
Last edited by Jolle on Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dans79
dans79
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Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Wouter wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:07 pm
It doesn't say anywhere that he has to start from the pit lane because of Parc Fermé!
It says he has to start from the pit lane due to a new specification.

It only says above that this happened during Parc Fermé, that's all.
It's in the sporting regulations.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... -07-12.pdf
A Competitor may not modify any part on the car or make changes to the set-up of the
suspension whilst the car is being held under parc fermé conditions. In the case of a breach of
this Article the relevant driver must: start the race from the pit lane and follow the procedures
laid out in Article 36.2.
176 101 100 7

User avatar
Wouter
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Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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dans79 wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:22 pm
Wouter wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:07 pm
It doesn't say anywhere that he has to start from the pit lane because of Parc Fermé!
It says he has to start from the pit lane due to a new specification.

It only says above that this happened during Parc Fermé, that's all.
It's in the sporting regulations.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... -07-12.pdf
A Competitor may not modify any part on the car or make changes to the set-up of the
suspension whilst the car is being held under parc fermé conditions. In the case of a breach of
this Article the relevant driver must: start the race from the pit lane and follow the procedures
laid out in Article 36.2.
So I think that's a lot more clearly defined/described. Loud and clear .

Santozini
Santozini
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Apologies if it has been asked before, but if RB decide to go for the 4th engine on Max's car next race (Russia) will the 3 place grid penalty move to Turkey? If not, they might as well change the engine for Russia

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RZS10
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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It has been discussed and i think the consensus is that we don't actually know how it would be handled, i believe though that the penalty would just disappear should they take the full "end of grid" engine swap.

Mazepin just recently got a grid drop penalty which he could not take because he was last anyways.

In 2015 there still were additional penalties stipulated in the rules for grid drops further than the 20 car grid (1-5=5s ; 6-10=10s ; 11-20=drive through ; 20+=stop and go), but one month after Max/Button were at the receiving end those were scrapped which opened another can of worms (stockpiling PU components, it was fixed eventually).

There is nothing in the rules (that i am aware of) that would ensure that a penalty is actually a penalty but tbf it is the same for most time penalties in races, they usually amount to nothing.

The discussion about whether they might take it is on the last few pages, it ain't that much to catch up.
Last edited by RZS10 on Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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godlameroso
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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I would then wait for Turkey to take the engine penalty, a 3 place grid drop can be somewhat mitigated if Perez and AT does a good job. And being the change hinges on the ES waiting as long as possible to iron out all the kinks of the new battery pack can only help. If Ferrari takes an engine change in Turkey then it would lessen the pain of the penalty, or at least give Verstappen some company.
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west52keep64
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Santozini wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:25 pm
Apologies if it has been asked before, but if RB decide to go for the 4th engine on Max's car next race (Russia) will the 3 place grid penalty move to Turkey? If not, they might as well change the engine for Russia
Not likely, the penalty is still applied even if he starts from the back. That's based on recent precedent for this anyway.

I do wonder if maybe they should be applying a time penalty in this kind of situation.

Alexf1
Alexf1
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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godlameroso wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:56 pm
I would then wait for Turkey to take the engine penalty, a 3 place grid drop can be somewhat mitigated if Perez and AT does a good job. And being the change hinges on the ES waiting as long as possible to iron out all the kinks of the new battery pack can only help. If Ferrari takes an engine change in Turkey then it would lessen the pain of the penalty, or at least give Verstappen some company.
I'm not so sure Max needs a new ES. Could be the 2nd ES he got in Spa is already the new spec. Would be strange if your lead driver wouldn't get it first. Perez got the new spec ES 7 days later in Zandvoort. We only know about the new spec ES because it had to be mentioned in the Parc Fermee report as the cause of his start from the pitlane instead of back of the grid.

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godlameroso
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Alexf1 wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:33 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:56 pm
I would then wait for Turkey to take the engine penalty, a 3 place grid drop can be somewhat mitigated if Perez and AT does a good job. And being the change hinges on the ES waiting as long as possible to iron out all the kinks of the new battery pack can only help. If Ferrari takes an engine change in Turkey then it would lessen the pain of the penalty, or at least give Verstappen some company.
I'm not so sure Max needs a new ES. Could be the 2nd ES he got in Spa is already the new spec. Would be strange if your lead driver wouldn't get it first. Perez got the new spec ES 7 days later in Zandvoort. We only know about the new spec ES because it had to be mentioned in the Parc Fermee report as the cause of his start from the pitlane instead of back of the grid.
That's a good point.
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etusch
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Alexf1 wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:33 pm

I'm not so sure Max needs a new ES. Could be the 2nd ES he got in Spa is already the new spec. Would be strange if your lead driver wouldn't get it first. Perez got the new spec ES 7 days later in Zandvoort. We only know about the new spec ES because it had to be mentioned in the Parc Fermee report as the cause of his start from the pitlane instead of back of the grid.
If the part got ready only after es change of faster drivers one and you don't want to make another change so soon, or if you want to see if it works better/as desired or not on track...

Alexf1
Alexf1
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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etusch wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:39 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:33 pm

I'm not so sure Max needs a new ES. Could be the 2nd ES he got in Spa is already the new spec. Would be strange if your lead driver wouldn't get it first. Perez got the new spec ES 7 days later in Zandvoort. We only know about the new spec ES because it had to be mentioned in the Parc Fermee report as the cause of his start from the pitlane instead of back of the grid.
If the part got ready only after es change of faster drivers one and you don't want to make another change so soon, or if you want to see if it works better/as desired or not on track...
Could be, but then Max missed his only chance to receive the better ES without a penalty by 7 days...? How likely is that. And if they needed to test it first with another driver then how likely would it be they also gave it to Gasly in Monza 7 days after Perez.

Gillian
Gillian
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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That makes sense. I think they are pushing back any engine penalty as far down the line as possible anyway. A race cancelled, another crash, rainy day, crazy qualy... We have seen a lot happen already so best is to wait until it really is no brainer or when you have no other choice.