2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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godlameroso
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Horner said Max was matching Hamilton after the first stint, and that he was losing two tenths per lap out of turn 6 which is a slow low downforce corner that puts more emphasis on traction that entry. Just like turn 12 in Brazil. You also claimed that Verstappen is faster in 1, 2 & 10 all corners that require good turn in and are medium speed corners where downforce matters more.
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dans79
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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godlameroso wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:00 pm
Most of the deficit came from turn 6, the most traction sensitive corner on the entire track, much like Hamilton had a massive advantage out of Juncao in Brazil.
Having watched almost the entire race via Max's onboard (post race), he was losing time in turn 6 because he looked to have understeer thats was constantly taking him way out onto the high exit curbs, not because of a traction deficit!
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godlameroso
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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dans79 wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:10 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:00 pm
Most of the deficit came from turn 6, the most traction sensitive corner on the entire track, much like Hamilton had a massive advantage out of Juncao in Brazil.
Having watched almost the entire race via Max's onboard (post race), he was losing time in turn 6 because he looked to have understeer thats was constantly taking him way out onto the high exit curbs, not because of a traction deficit!
He was told to stay off those curbs mid race, whatever happened helped because that entry oversteer led to him matching Hamilton. In fact Verstappen's fastest lap was faster than what Hamilton managed on the same tire.
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Tvetovnato
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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godlameroso wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:34 pm
dans79 wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:10 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:00 pm
Most of the deficit came from turn 6, the most traction sensitive corner on the entire track, much like Hamilton had a massive advantage out of Juncao in Brazil.
Having watched almost the entire race via Max's onboard (post race), he was losing time in turn 6 because he looked to have understeer thats was constantly taking him way out onto the high exit curbs, not because of a traction deficit!
He was told to stay off those curbs mid race, whatever happened helped because that entry oversteer led to him matching Hamilton. In fact Verstappen's fastest lap was faster than what Hamilton managed on the same tire.
It’s not really comparable after stint 1 since Hamilton already had a 8-9 second gap by then. He simply maintained it afterwards, and as soon as Verstappen made a push, Hamilton simply responded. It’s quite clear from the onboards how safe Hamilton played it, and how much he actually managed the car and tyres.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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godlameroso wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:04 pm
Horner said Max was matching Hamilton after the first stint, and that he was losing two tenths per lap out of turn 6 which is a slow low downforce corner that puts more emphasis on traction that entry. Just like turn 12 in Brazil. You also claimed that Verstappen is faster in 1, 2 & 10 all corners that require good turn in and are medium speed corners where downforce matters more.
Well, just looking back at the timing, and watching from lap 22 to lap 31 so 10 laps and a few laps after the first pit stops. In turn 6 Max only lost a full tenth or more on 2 laps. On each of those 2 laps he was up behind Mazepin and then Russell so being tucked up behind a backmarker will lose time for obvious reasons. So If Horner said Max was losing 2 tenths per lap out of turn 6, he is talking bs again. Only when behind a back marker did he lose more that 1 tenth, and of those 10 laps I looked back at , 6 were closer to 0 than 1 tenth, only 2 were nearly a tenth.
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NathanOlder
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Tvetovnato wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:40 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:34 pm
dans79 wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:10 pm


Having watched almost the entire race via Max's onboard (post race), he was losing time in turn 6 because he looked to have understeer thats was constantly taking him way out onto the high exit curbs, not because of a traction deficit!
He was told to stay off those curbs mid race, whatever happened helped because that entry oversteer led to him matching Hamilton. In fact Verstappen's fastest lap was faster than what Hamilton managed on the same tire.
It’s not really comparable after stint 1 since Hamilton already had a 8-9 second gap by then. He simply maintained it afterwards, and as soon as Verstappen made a push, Hamilton simply responded. It’s quite clear from the onboards how safe Hamilton played it, and how much he actually managed the car and tyres.
Exactly this, he worked up a decent gap, then maintained the gap. If Max hadn't have stopped for new tyres and without the VSC , I think Lewis would have taken fastest lap but unfortunately we will never know.
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dans79
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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godlameroso wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:34 pm
In fact Verstappen's fastest lap was faster than what Hamilton managed on the same tire.
take a look at https://www.racefans.net/2021/11/21/202 ... and-tyres/

1st stint Lewis was faster, 87.514 vs 88.166

2nd stint Lewis was faster, 86.47 vs 86.587

3rs stint Max was faster 84.031 vs 85.084

However i don't personally put much stock in the 3rd stint times, Because Max did his time the lap after Alonso pitted. Thus he knew he could take everything out of the tires and pit for a 4th stint if need be. As it happens the VSC ensured he cold do that!

If you look at the best 3rd stint lap times before that they had nothing between them! Max 85.03 vs Lewis 85.084. Its obvious both of them were trying to find a gap that would let them go for the fastest lap as late as possible! Alonso pitting just gave Max more strategic options!
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HungarianRacer
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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godlameroso wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:04 pm
Horner said Max was matching Hamilton after the first stint, and that he was losing two tenths per lap out of turn 6 which is a slow low downforce corner that puts more emphasis on traction that entry. Just like turn 12 in Brazil. You also claimed that Verstappen is faster in 1, 2 & 10 all corners that require good turn in and are medium speed corners where downforce matters more.
Turn 10 was the only corner where HAM lost time to his previous lap according to his steering wheel, on his first attempt he was about as fast as VER's final Q3 effort, Bottas had an even higher minimum speed through there I believe.

As for T1 & 2, HAM choose to be very conservative on the brakes after the pair of snaps he had in this section on his prior attempt, nevertheless, his min. speed was actually still a colossal 8 km/h higher than VER's in T1...

... And I'm not sure what you mean he was "much better through 8" (effectively not a corner), if you mean Turn 9, NO, in fact, he was quiet clearly slower, as it is evident in the comparison video... If you mean in the race, it's a high speed right hander that gives hell to the left fronts, of course it's going to be an area of management, a pursuer that is trying (and failing) to close a gap will do what a pursuer does in such sections, suggesting that if he was faster there in those circumstances then it's somehow evidence that he had more downforce on his car is nothing but grasping at straws.

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Juzh
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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godlameroso wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:00 pm
Remember that Verstappen likely saw the yellow flag already in sector 2 likely compromising his rhythm.
At no point during his last Q3 lap was Verstappen aware of any yellow flags on track, apart from maybe double waved yellow form marshalling post on the start/finish straight. Nothing popped on his steering wheel and team didn't tell him anything over the radio. As far as he was concerned track was clear trough and trough and certainly wasn't influencing his driving on that lap.

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Juzh
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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HungarianRacer wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:27 pm
As for T1 & 2, HAM choose to be very conservative on the brakes after the pair of snaps he had in this section on his prior attempt, nevertheless, his min. speed was actually still a colossal 8 km/h higher than VER's in T1...
T1 is a weird corner. 8 kmh higher apex speed resulted in almost no advantage gained for Hamilton:

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ringo
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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godlameroso wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:04 pm
Horner said Max was matching Hamilton after the first stint, and that he was losing two tenths per lap out of turn 6 which is a slow low downforce corner that puts more emphasis on traction that entry. Just like turn 12 in Brazil. You also claimed that Verstappen is faster in 1, 2 & 10 all corners that require good turn in and are medium speed corners where downforce matters more.
How much of the deficit was down to the damaged front wing?
For Sure!!

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ringo
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Juzh wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:27 am
HungarianRacer wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:27 pm
As for T1 & 2, HAM choose to be very conservative on the brakes after the pair of snaps he had in this section on his prior attempt, nevertheless, his min. speed was actually still a colossal 8 km/h higher than VER's in T1...
T1 is a weird corner. 8 kmh higher apex speed resulted in almost no advantage gained for Hamilton:
Looks like the rubber held up better with HAM.
For Sure!!

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AeroDynamic
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Juzh
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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ringo wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:10 am
Juzh wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:27 am
HungarianRacer wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:27 pm
As for T1 & 2, HAM choose to be very conservative on the brakes after the pair of snaps he had in this section on his prior attempt, nevertheless, his min. speed was actually still a colossal 8 km/h higher than VER's in T1...
T1 is a weird corner. 8 kmh higher apex speed resulted in almost no advantage gained for Hamilton:
Looks like the rubber held up better with HAM.
Why would you say that when Verstappen had more speed trough final two corners T15 and T16? Even if you balance out entry/exit priorities by both drivers the gap is more or less the same if not slightly in Verstappen's favour from turn 10 till the end. All gains by hamilton are done on straights from that point onwards.

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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Not really. Hamilton makes up so much on the final straight because he’s able to get on the power earlier in the corner and Carrie’s that speed with him