2021 Mclaren F1 Team

[CjC]

That’s the session missed. Another blow to our chances

[mwillems]

I think it’s important to remember that the 2022 car was originally intended for 2021. The rules, if I remember correctly were firmed up in October 2019, at which time teams were allowed to start working on their cars. So how far behind or ahead a team is, could date back to when they originally started before the COVID-19 enforced postponement and 1st January 2021 restriction. Prior to the launch of the MCL35 in 2020, Zak Brown said the 2021 car (as it was then) was already in the wind tunnel. Since the 2018 debacle, when they stopped working on the 33 early to start on the 34, McLaren has cultivated the habit of using FPs during the season to work on the next years car. They were the first to trial the 2021 floor, sorted out the nose box because of the token restrictions. With car development for the first half of the season sorted out by last Christmas, it’s not impossible that the last set of updates the team have had were in place by May or June. From my side, pound for pound, I’d be surprised if any team is ahead of McLaren on the 2022 car, my opinion.

It's true, but actually teams like Ferrari, Merc and RB who have much bigger budgets than us had the ability to dedicate much more resource to it than we do. Remember, there was no cap then.

If we want to get ahead we have to use all our resources wisely, and I don't see the choice to continue to develop the 21 as a wise amount of time. There was almost no benefit from it. From 3rd to 4th? It doesn't matter. Nowehere near as much as the 22 car, and you cannot do enough development for a new format I don't think. You need to throw the kitchen sink at it and get the best car you can. Because even if you think you might be ahead, you might still be behind..

I wonder how many times a team has turned up with a car they thought was great, and just got dumped on by most. It's happened to us!

Edit: Doesn't matter in development, I do think it matters on track, for the drivers and the team, but 22 has to be prioritised, not sit back on our laurels and think we've done enough.

[Ground Effect]

I think it’s important to remember that the 2022 car was originally intended for 2021. The rules, if I remember correctly were firmed up in October 2019, at which time teams were allowed to start working on their cars. So how far behind or ahead a team is, could date back to when they originally started before the COVID-19 enforced postponement and 1st January 2021 restriction. Prior to the launch of the MCL35 in 2020, Zak Brown said the 2021 car (as it was then) was already in the wind tunnel. Since the 2018 debacle, when they stopped working on the 33 early to start on the 34, McLaren has cultivated the habit of using FPs during the season to work on the next years car. They were the first to trial the 2021 floor, sorted out the nose box because of the token restrictions. With car development for the first half of the season sorted out by last Christmas, it’s not impossible that the last set of updates the team have had were in place by May or June. From my side, pound for pound, I’d be surprised if any team is ahead of McLaren on the 2022 car, my opinion.

It's true, but actually teams like Ferrari, Merc and RB who have much bigger budgets than us had the ability to dedicate much more resource to it than we do. Remember, there was no cap then.

If we want to get ahead we have to use all our resources wisely, and I don't see the choice to continue to develop the 21 as a wise amount of time. There was almost no benefit from it. From 3rd to 4th? It doesn't matter. Nowehere near as much as the 22 car, and you cannot do enough development for a new format I don't think. You need to throw the kitchen sink at it and get the best car you can. Because even if you think you might be ahead, you might still be behind..

I wonder how many times a team has turned up with a car they thought was great, and just got dumped on by most. It's happened to us!

Edit: Doesn't matter in development, I do think it matters on track, for the drivers and the team, but 22 has to be prioritised, not sit back on our laurels and think we've done enough.

Fully agreed on the big 3 having more resources to direct into the 2022 project before the cap kicked in, hence I said “pound for pound”. I think we’ve got a leaner, fitter, wiser and also more prudent McLaren team leading the charge. They obviously see the reset as a unique opportunity to close the gap quicker. From all we’ve heard from Seidl, Brown etc, they don’t expect to be on the level of Mercedes, Red Bull and perhaps Ferrari from the get go, simply due to their infrastructure deficit. There’s no escaping that and no alternative magic fix. But they seem to have a lot of confidence in their updated CFD, which I guess is on par with the top guys. The new cars are a blank sheet of paper and I just keep getting this feeling that Prodromou’s time is now,

[mclaren111]

I think it’s important to remember that the 2022 car was originally intended for 2021. The rules, if I remember correctly were firmed up in October 2019, at which time teams were allowed to start working on their cars. So how far behind or ahead a team is, could date back to when they originally started before the COVID-19 enforced postponement and 1st January 2021 restriction. Prior to the launch of the MCL35 in 2020, Zak Brown said the 2021 car (as it was then) was already in the wind tunnel. Since the 2018 debacle, when they stopped working on the 33 early to start on the 34, McLaren has cultivated the habit of using FPs during the season to work on the next years car. They were the first to trial the 2021 floor, sorted out the nose box because of the token restrictions. With car development for the first half of the season sorted out by last Christmas, it’s not impossible that the last set of updates the team have had were in place by May or June. From my side, pound for pound, I’d be surprised if any team is ahead of McLaren on the 2022 car, my opinion.

It's true, but actually teams like Ferrari, Merc and RB who have much bigger budgets than us had the ability to dedicate much more resource to it than we do. Remember, there was no cap then.

If we want to get ahead we have to use all our resources wisely, and I don't see the choice to continue to develop the 21 as a wise amount of time. There was almost no benefit from it. From 3rd to 4th? It doesn't matter. Nowehere near as much as the 22 car, and you cannot do enough development for a new format I don't think. You need to throw the kitchen sink at it and get the best car you can. Because even if you think you might be ahead, you might still be behind..

I wonder how many times a team has turned up with a car they thought was great, and just got dumped on by most. It's happened to us!

Edit: Doesn't matter in development, I do think it matters on track, for the drivers and the team, but 22 has to be prioritised, not sit back on our laurels and think we've done enough.

Fully agreed on the big 3 having more resources to direct into the 2022 project before the cap kicked in, hence I said “pound for pound”. I think we’ve got a leaner, fitter, wiser and also more prudent McLaren team leading the charge. They obviously see the reset as a unique opportunity to close the gap quicker. From all we’ve heard from Seidl, Brown etc, they don’t expect to be on the level of Mercedes, Red Bull and perhaps Ferrari from the get go, simply due to their infrastructure deficit. There’s no escaping that and no alternative magic fix. But they seem to have a lot of confidence in their updated CFD, which I guess is on par with the top guys. The new cars are a blank sheet of paper and I just keep getting this feeling that Prodromou’s time is now,

Agree...

P Prod, Stella & Key is a formidable team...

[diffuser]

I think it’s important to remember that the 2022 car was originally intended for 2021. The rules, if I remember correctly were firmed up in October 2019, at which time teams were allowed to start working on their cars. So how far behind or ahead a team is, could date back to when they originally started before the COVID-19 enforced postponement and 1st January 2021 restriction. Prior to the launch of the MCL35 in 2020, Zak Brown said the 2021 car (as it was then) was already in the wind tunnel. Since the 2018 debacle, when they stopped working on the 33 early to start on the 34, McLaren has cultivated the habit of using FPs during the season to work on the next years car. They were the first to trial the 2021 floor, sorted out the nose box because of the token restrictions. With car development for the first half of the season sorted out by last Christmas, it’s not impossible that the last set of updates the team have had were in place by May or June. From my side, pound for pound, I’d be surprised if any team is ahead of McLaren on the 2022 car, my opinion.

It's true, but actually teams like Ferrari, Merc and RB who have much bigger budgets than us had the ability to dedicate much more resource to it than we do. Remember, there was no cap then.

If we want to get ahead we have to use all our resources wisely, and I don't see the choice to continue to develop the 21 as a wise amount of time. There was almost no benefit from it. From 3rd to 4th? It doesn't matter. Nowehere near as much as the 22 car, and you cannot do enough development for a new format I don't think. You need to throw the kitchen sink at it and get the best car you can. Because even if you think you might be ahead, you might still be behind..

I wonder how many times a team has turned up with a car they thought was great, and just got dumped on by most. It's happened to us!

Edit: Doesn't matter in development, I do think it matters on track, for the drivers and the team, but 22 has to be prioritised, not sit back on our laurels and think we've done enough.

Fully agreed on the big 3 having more resources to direct into the 2022 project before the cap kicked in, hence I said “pound for pound”. I think we’ve got a leaner, fitter, wiser and also more prudent McLaren team leading the charge. They obviously see the reset as a unique opportunity to close the gap quicker. From all we’ve heard from Seidl, Brown etc, they don’t expect to be on the level of Mercedes, Red Bull and perhaps Ferrari from the get go, simply due to their infrastructure deficit. There’s no escaping that and no alternative magic fix. But they seem to have a lot of confidence in their updated CFD, which I guess is on par with the top guys. The new cars are a blank sheet of paper and I just keep getting this feeling that Prodromou’s time is now,

They had more resources but didn't know what the project was going to be. The Specification on the 2022 car didn't get finalized till late 2021. Although largely know there were a few changes that occurred in the finalisation of the rules that would have made it hard to get a head start. Plus there was a rule that they were not allowed to have the 2022 F1 car in the wind tunnel before Jan 1 2021.

[mwillems]

I think it’s important to remember that the 2022 car was originally intended for 2021. The rules, if I remember correctly were firmed up in October 2019, at which time teams were allowed to start working on their cars. So how far behind or ahead a team is, could date back to when they originally started before the COVID-19 enforced postponement and 1st January 2021 restriction. Prior to the launch of the MCL35 in 2020, Zak Brown said the 2021 car (as it was then) was already in the wind tunnel. Since the 2018 debacle, when they stopped working on the 33 early to start on the 34, McLaren has cultivated the habit of using FPs during the season to work on the next years car. They were the first to trial the 2021 floor, sorted out the nose box because of the token restrictions. With car development for the first half of the season sorted out by last Christmas, it’s not impossible that the last set of updates the team have had were in place by May or June. From my side, pound for pound, I’d be surprised if any team is ahead of McLaren on the 2022 car, my opinion.

It's true, but actually teams like Ferrari, Merc and RB who have much bigger budgets than us had the ability to dedicate much more resource to it than we do. Remember, there was no cap then.

If we want to get ahead we have to use all our resources wisely, and I don't see the choice to continue to develop the 21 as a wise amount of time. There was almost no benefit from it. From 3rd to 4th? It doesn't matter. Nowehere near as much as the 22 car, and you cannot do enough development for a new format I don't think. You need to throw the kitchen sink at it and get the best car you can. Because even if you think you might be ahead, you might still be behind..

I wonder how many times a team has turned up with a car they thought was great, and just got dumped on by most. It's happened to us!

Edit: Doesn't matter in development, I do think it matters on track, for the drivers and the team, but 22 has to be prioritised, not sit back on our laurels and think we've done enough.

Fully agreed on the big 3 having more resources to direct into the 2022 project before the cap kicked in, hence I said “pound for pound”. I think we’ve got a leaner, fitter, wiser and also more prudent McLaren team leading the charge. They obviously see the reset as a unique opportunity to close the gap quicker. From all we’ve heard from Seidl, Brown etc, they don’t expect to be on the level of Mercedes, Red Bull and perhaps Ferrari from the get go, simply due to their infrastructure deficit. There’s no escaping that and no alternative magic fix. But they seem to have a lot of confidence in their updated CFD, which I guess is on par with the top guys. The new cars are a blank sheet of paper and I just keep getting this feeling that Prodromou’s time is now,

Well on that I hope and think your'e right!

We have a great team, and we are fighting fit for sure. It's the best we've been for a long time. But it's that pound for pound that concerns me, because up until this year the people we want to overtake had the chance to get more development in than us, and this may have been the chance to pull that back, but it feels like we may have dropped a little bit more.

I'm hoping the team have found a silver Bullet and know they have a very quick car. I wonder if that is part of how they persauded DR to come to us?

One things is for sure, I do think we have a team that can drive innovation and take Mclaren forward.

But I still would have spent more time on the 22 car

#NotLettingItGo
#WhatWereTheyDoing

[mwillems]

It's true, but actually teams like Ferrari, Merc and RB who have much bigger budgets than us had the ability to dedicate much more resource to it than we do. Remember, there was no cap then.

If we want to get ahead we have to use all our resources wisely, and I don't see the choice to continue to develop the 21 as a wise amount of time. There was almost no benefit from it. From 3rd to 4th? It doesn't matter. Nowehere near as much as the 22 car, and you cannot do enough development for a new format I don't think. You need to throw the kitchen sink at it and get the best car you can. Because even if you think you might be ahead, you might still be behind..

I wonder how many times a team has turned up with a car they thought was great, and just got dumped on by most. It's happened to us!

Edit: Doesn't matter in development, I do think it matters on track, for the drivers and the team, but 22 has to be prioritised, not sit back on our laurels and think we've done enough.

Fully agreed on the big 3 having more resources to direct into the 2022 project before the cap kicked in, hence I said “pound for pound”. I think we’ve got a leaner, fitter, wiser and also more prudent McLaren team leading the charge. They obviously see the reset as a unique opportunity to close the gap quicker. From all we’ve heard from Seidl, Brown etc, they don’t expect to be on the level of Mercedes, Red Bull and perhaps Ferrari from the get go, simply due to their infrastructure deficit. There’s no escaping that and no alternative magic fix. But they seem to have a lot of confidence in their updated CFD, which I guess is on par with the top guys. The new cars are a blank sheet of paper and I just keep getting this feeling that Prodromou’s time is now,

They had more resources but didn't know what the project was going to be. The Specification on the 2022 car didn't get finalized till late 2021. Although largely know there were a few changes that occurred in the finalisation of the rules that would have made it hard to get a head start. Plus there was a rule that they were not allowed to have the 2022 F1 car in the wind tunnel before Jan 1 2021.

Either way for me, whether they got a head start or not before the start of this year, 4-5 races in you can see we don't need to develop the 21 car to get 4th, only to target 3rd. But perhaps the team know they same something really special.

[SmallSoldier]

I respect your point of view in regards to ditching this season in order to try and get the best potential start to the following one, it is a valid argument and one that other teams seem to have follow.

My take on the situation is the following:

A) During the exploration / concept phase of the 2022 car, there are no parts been manufactured, the amount of resources used in this phase is relatively low since it’s probably an small group that first needs to agree on the architecture of the car from a mechanical point of view, there isn’t a lot of aerodynamic work yet during this phase, you are looking at potential influence of big surfaces, but you can’t correlate them together without knowing what the architecture is… What is the core of your design team doing at this point? What is the manufacturing team doing at this point?… Those are working on parts for the 2021 car while they are waiting on parts for 2022 to work on.

B) From the article, I also take that most of the parts we’ve seeing coming for the MCL35M were signed off several months ago, which means that the critical resource for the 2022 car was working on next year’s car… While they had a team (mainly production and validation) still focus on the 2021 car.

C) Even though from a probability perspective, the more time you spend in the 2022 car should give you the biggest chance of success next year, the reality is that it may very well not be the case… The team that has apparently spent the most amount of time looking at 2022 is Haas, I don’t think that there is an expectation for them to win the WCC next year… Throwing away 2021 without assurance that it would spell success in 2022 is something that I wouldn’t advice… Furthermore and Key mentions this as well, we were competing in 2021 and it is important for the Team, the Sponsors and Investors that they have the best possible outcome out of the season, ultimately the results from last season and this one are opening up negotiations for better deals with Sponsors for the car, which creates financial stability, additional resources for investment and an stable platform to build upon… For a brand as McLarenF1 to continue to show progress was critical for their long term success (even if that implies not fighting at the front next season)… Maybe one of the reasons why Zak and Andreas keep talking about mounting a fight for WCC as early as 2023 (at which point the rest of the investments in the necessary hardware will be online)… I can see a different point of view from a Fan perspective, since those numbers (financial) behind the scene aren’t at the forefront of the decisions we would make.

D) I tend to believe that the “brain trust” inside the McLaren Team is quiet strong and that decisions such as this (extend focus in 2021 beyond what the competitors may be doing) wasn’t done on a wimp and backed up by sufficient data in regards to pro’s and con’s of doing so… They have a capable team in place and so far the progress showed during the last 3 seasons is proof of that… At this stage, I tend to support their decision based on what we are seeing on track and can only hope that the team will have a strong 2022 season also… Like I said before, I believe that there is a lot of validity to the counter argument, but I have no reasons (nor data) to think that the Team’s thought process and decision in regards to when and how much to focus on 2022 is the wrong one or suboptimal.

Again I do fully respect your opinion but personally hold differently.

Regarding A) and B) We know from the teams statements running up to Silverstone and Hungary and from this one that design continued well after the January sign off and design carried on up until the summer, albeit in a reducing amount

Regarding C, as you acknowledge the probability is that the more time we spend on the 22 car the better 22 might be. But then it goes on to only make a comparison between 21 and 22. But the comparison should be between 22 and the seasons afterwards, versus the rewards of 21. Because what we do for the 22 car is the platform for everything afterwards too. 2021 is a standalone year now and will not benefit 2022.

We were never going to finish lower than 4th this year, it was evident after a few races, so the team have gone all in on the fight with Ferrari for 3rd. I cannot get on board with that. On a Risk reward for this year, there was little risk and little reward for stopping or continuing development, when looking at the outcome of the '21 championship. There is however a bigger risk and reward to the outcome of 22 and the seasons afterwards.

Was it worth sacrificing work on the 22 car to get 3rd instead of 4th? I don't think so. And to use your own logic, there is no assurance of getting 3rd and that the time spent on the 21 car had any benefit at all. If we finish 4th this year, then you'd say it was a waste of resources. You cannot argue that the work on next years car is ever going to be a waste of resources.

Ferrari know that next year is when they need to beat us, and every year after it. The team, Sainz and Leclerc have said that this year is not important to them like other seasons were - something they started saying when they realised it was either 3rd or 4th. So forget HAAS, we are up against Ferrari, Merc and RB and we have the added threat of Renault, Aston Martin, Alpha Tauri and I think Williams too.

We are going to get to '22 and, to quote some gentleman from a fine movie, we may find that "this sh*t just got real"
Obviously I don't know what will happen in '22, I just wanted to end that with a quote from Bad Boys 2.

A good start to 2022 is definitely important, we agree on that… The question is what resources have been used towards 2021 that may be hampering 22… For what I can tell (and I may be completely wrong) the mechanical aspect of the ‘22 cars will have a bigger impact on performance compared to the current generation of cars, we are having a complete new suspension for example), there is probably work on further integrating the Mercedes PU with all the learnings from this year… If that’s the case and considering that the cars are freezed this year, I’m sure is using 100% of their resources since the beginning of the year in these aspects… During the first half of the year, the work on Aero parts for 2022 was probably not at a “detail” level, since first the concept and large areas are the ones that need to be agreed on before detail work starts, therefore not using all of your resources for 22 and could use them for this year’s car.

I still believe in the thought process from the Team and believe that they have enough data on hand to make the best possible decision… And, if the added resources and push towards 21 was the reason for our first victory in a decade at Monza, I believe it may have been worth it! With how restrictive 2022 will be, I believe that even if you start a bit on the back foot on the first year, it will be relatively easier to catch up than it is with the current regulations.

[mwillems]

A good start to 2022 is definitely important, we agree on that… The question is what resources have been used towards 2021 that may be hampering 22… For what I can tell (and I may be completely wrong) the mechanical aspect of the ‘22 cars will have a bigger impact on performance compared to the current generation of cars, we are having a complete new suspension for example), there is probably work on further integrating the Mercedes PU with all the learnings from this year… If that’s the case and considering that the cars are freezed this year, I’m sure is using 100% of their resources since the beginning of the year in these aspects… During the first half of the year, the work on Aero parts for 2022 was probably not at a “detail” level, since first the concept and large areas are the ones that need to be agreed on before detail work starts, therefore not using all of your resources for 22 and could use them for this year’s car.

I still believe in the thought process from the Team and believe that they have enough data on hand to make the best possible decision… And, if the added resources and push towards 21 was the reason for our first victory in a decade at Monza, I believe it may have been worth it! With how restrictive 2022 will be, I believe that even if you start a bit on the back foot on the first year, it will be relatively easier to catch up than it is with the current regulations.

Design time, CFD time and Tunnel time are likely to have been taken for the 21 car it seems. I think that the base platform was signed off prior to 2021, they just couldn't put stuff in the Wind Tunnel so during al of 2021 they could have been doing design work on the car, I appreciate that you trust them, but I find it hard to move to a position where this decision is a benefit.

Now since we disagree I shall quote another movie.

Your mother was a hamster and your father smells of elderberries.

[diffuser]

Fully agreed on the big 3 having more resources to direct into the 2022 project before the cap kicked in, hence I said “pound for pound”. I think we’ve got a leaner, fitter, wiser and also more prudent McLaren team leading the charge. They obviously see the reset as a unique opportunity to close the gap quicker. From all we’ve heard from Seidl, Brown etc, they don’t expect to be on the level of Mercedes, Red Bull and perhaps Ferrari from the get go, simply due to their infrastructure deficit. There’s no escaping that and no alternative magic fix. But they seem to have a lot of confidence in their updated CFD, which I guess is on par with the top guys. The new cars are a blank sheet of paper and I just keep getting this feeling that Prodromou’s time is now,

They had more resources but didn't know what the project was going to be. The Specification on the 2022 car didn't get finalized till late 2021. Although largely know there were a few changes that occurred in the finalisation of the rules that would have made it hard to get a head start. Plus there was a rule that they were not allowed to have the 2022 F1 car in the wind tunnel before Jan 1 2021.

Either way for me, whether they got a head start or not before the start of this year, 4-5 races in you can see we don't need to develop the 21 car to get 4th, only to target 3rd. But perhaps the team know they same something really special.

On that we agree.

I said that a while ago that it was already clear that McLaren would finish Between 3ird and 4th. That I wasn't sure that the extra money for finishing 3ird was worth the time sacrifice on the 2022 car. Financially, you know you're at the CAP as is, not like the extra cache will go to next year's car. It just money that flows in a bank, bonuses or back to shareholders(non sporting).

[geogate]

winning a race, being up the front fighting is probably more important than finishing 3rd or 4th. People know now that McLaren are back - potential sponsors, technical partners, investors. They were in a very bad place just a few years ago. They have turned it around and now have renewed the legitimacy of the brand - that is priceless to McLaren

[Big Tea]

winning a race, being up the front fighting is probably more important than finishing 3rd or 4th. People know now that McLaren are back - potential sponsors, technical partners, investors. They were in a very bad place just a few years ago. They have turned it around and now have renewed the legitimacy of the brand - that is priceless to McLaren

I was about to disagree with you and say stuff like 'Nah, its points at the end of the season that count' , then I thought.
No, You are right. Everyone has points at the end of the season, but only a few have wins.

Public acclimation is what get you noticed, and getting noticed bring in the funding

[SmallSoldier]

Enzo said it best… Win on Sunday, sell cars on Monday


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mwillems]

I don't think the question rules out wins, it asks do you prioritise 1 throwaway season or do you do everything you can to target repeatable success in the future.

I get the tub thumping because of Monza, but one win does not a success make.

[McL-H]

With FP3 cancelled and a chance of qualifying not to go underway either, I wished we had treated FP2 as a qualifying session.