Mercedes GP 2011

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

X

To have some credibilty in what are saying you need to quote the whole story.
In everyone of Brawn's interviews he says he is expecting a big jump in performance, but he does not know what the others have come up with either.

"I think we're about a second off where we want to be, and where we want to be is mixing it at the front. So we've got to find a second in the upgrade, which we think we can do but you never know what the others are going to do as well. Everybody's going to have new bits at Barcelona.

So he is fully aware of what could happen. I would also hasten to add that while every man and his dog(including me) have said the car is unfinished, why would it be necessary to point out the rough body work at this stage? We can see Brawn and his team have an eye for some innovation, with the double diffuser and front wing of 2009, and the blade airbox concept of 2010. Lets wait and see what they have before questioning the fabric of the team and its principle.

[xpensive]

First of all JET, the concept of first dropping development of last years car to focus on building a mule for pre-season,
only to bounce back a five to midnight with a completely new and so much faster car, would be novel indeed.

Secondly, the "Double-diffuser" of 2009 whould and should have been banned in a heartbeat if it had not been for MrM's agenda, but MrE's old spannerman wasn't even consulted when MrM decided the case in Autosport.

"It's not a hole, it's a slot!" Get the f**k outa here...

[Ferraripilot]

Pretty much so, yes.

But no, I'm not active within F1 or anywhere near that state of quality, but I do work for a global outfit with some 130 000 employees, why I have a vague idea of how to value and judge various results of mechanical engineering.

Beholding the W02 in detail tells me a rather sad story, a story of people without proper management, where the money is handed out in a way too secure and certain fashion, the kind of office where people leave at 1600, work completed or not.

Believe me, the latter would never happen on my watch.

wow, you have seen W02 in detail? Please, tell us of the particulars. Last I heard, MB employees were working around the clock preparing their planned upgrade (note: always planned). A fool and the media trying to sell garbage would judge them in their current status. Judge them after their plan has come to fruition. Until then, your logic is utter nonsense and completely baseless.

[Ferraripilot]

What we do know for certain, is that RB cheerfully admits to be about a second off the pace, while hoping to close that with promised developments. This would sound plausible, but also suggests that Ferrari, RBR and McLaren are standing still?

Mark my words, everyone else was NOT going with such a radical testing platform as MB. The others will be grasping at tenths, no more. Their cars were near done to begin with. At final testing or Melbourne, we will see from the others a very slightly different front wing, rear wing, and perhaps a diffuser. Quote me later.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

X

To the letter of the law the double diffuser was LEGAL. In spirit it was not, by letter it was.

Toyota and Williams both were prepared to push for further legal action in case of a ban, meaning they had very good reason. 30% percent of teams had it, it was within the letter of the law, and it was deemed so by the FIA. End of that story, these grapes have gone from sour to rotten now.

Mercedes dropped development in July, Most teams where looking at their new concepts in August/September... a whole 1 or 2 months, big wank.
Mercedes also added bit and bobs to their car in Japan and Brazil, so it wasnt entirely dropped either.
You need to satisfy yourself with the inner workings of an F1 organisation, I cannot do that for you, but I can tell you Brawn was chirping about keeping the W02 in basic trim until at least the last test or even first GP.

Our intention was always to launch the car in a fairly basic specification to allow more time to focus on the upgrade package. This inevitably means that we look further off the pace than people might expect. Knowing all of the facts, I am comfortable with our current position and the developments that we have to come.

Its this way by design X, like it or hate it, just dont judge it!

Whether it works or not is another story, but Brawn to has stood up to the plate and said its a risk:

We think our strategy is correct, to approach it the way we have, and we'll all know when we get to the first race. But we set out our plan, and we'll know when we get to Melbourne whether the plan was right. It's fun to speculate at the moment, but it's very difficult.

I think you need to cut them a bit of slack, as much fun as it is to read your posts X, it really isnt fair.

[spadeflush]

@JET:agreed

It would be wrong to judge MGP right now.I am sure the MGPW02 will be better than the W01.How much better?We ll know in Australia.

[xpensive]

X

To the letter of the law the double diffuser was LEGAL. In spirit it was not, by letter it was.
...

Yeah right, as if it would have passed if coming from Ron Dennis desk I guess?

W02 is smoked, MGP history, MS parks it before summer with "neck-pain" and Norb will find a new career in "Biggest loser".

Had enough JET?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I'm sure all these things happening would make you feel better X, But Schumacher was supposed to have "parked" it before Canada. Mercedes where supposed to have been on their way by now(Yet here we are with Mercedes pumping more money for sole ownership).
As for Norby, would you rather a Horner? Or a Po-faced Sauber? Gve me the beer swigging German journo over that lot all day thanks.

Anything else constructive to add?

[Ferraripilot]

Troll much, X? Your positions have been stampeeded and you have gone from questionable to outright silly and asinine. Nice try though. =D>

[segedunum]

The whole point of dumping the 2010 car early and starting on this year's car was so that this kind of last minute desperation didn't happen. It doesn't matter what way you cut it, no one starts trying to build a new car working 24 hours a day before the final test unless there's some panicking going on. I'd call a second off a fair way behind, and anyone who thinks a team will gain a whole second with a single upgrade, and any team who pins their hopes on it, is a fair bit wide of the mark.

Anyone who thinks and believes that was 'always planned' is similarly midguided. Once again, the usual suspects are quoting 'Brawn the Oracle' until the cows have come home rather than looking at what's in front of them. Only a fool would follow a fool and judge them on some hypothetical position they think they will be in that there is no evidence for. Love is blind though......

[xpensive]

Troll much, X? Your positions have been stampeeded and you have gone from questionable to outright silly and asinine. Nice try though. =D>

That's ok, I was called worse on the USF1-thread a year ago, to which the MGP situation has an eerie resemblance to.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Are you serious?

USF1? Come on X you making a laughing stock of yourself mate.

Mercedes have a full season under their belt.USF1 dont even exist,nor did they compete.
Mercedes have a list of blue chip sponsors. USF1 didnt even have 1.
Mercedes have Ross Brawn and a few other notables. USF1 had Windsor.
Mercedes have a fully fledged factory. USF1 had a near empty warehouse.
Mercedes are actively investing with evidence of it. USF1 spoke about it, thats it!
Mercedes have a plan. USF1 certainly did not.
Mercedes have capacity to pay for staff. USF1 did not.
Mercedes are by any measurable definition the exact antithesis of USF1.

If you see "eerie resemblances" may I be the first to ask you, to put the Absinthe away and to revert back to the usual Absolut? Easy mistake X...

[Ferraripilot]

Troll much, X? Your positions have been stampeeded and you have gone from questionable to outright silly and asinine. Nice try though. =D>

That's ok, I was called worse on the USF1-thread a year ago, to which the MGP situation has an eerie resemblance to.

I'm not even going to ask how MB bears any resemblance to that mess as doing so would be an exersize in futility. In short though; no, that is not the case. Not even close. wow it just gets better.

I'm done feeding it.

[jav]

X

... Mercedes dropped development in July, Most teams where looking at their new concepts in August/September... a whole 1 or 2 months, big wank...

but I can tell you Brawn was chirping about keeping the W02 in basic trim until at least the last test or even first GP...

I've got to disagree with these two points.

Merc. stopped development of the '10 car just about mid season. While the others may have starting "thinking" about (or even working on) '11 plans, there was a title fight that wasn't decided until the final race of the season. Certainly, Brawn blamed his own title fight in '09 for the much of '10's failures...I think it's quite fair to suggest that Brawns early exit in '10 should have been a HUGE benefit over 3 teams that developed and fought until the bitter end of 2010. To suggest otherwise contradicts even Brawns assertions.


Other teams such as McClaren and Renault, committed arguably less to the 2011 car development and both brought pretty inovative and different ideas earlier than Merc did. They may not be as successful as Merc but they be more ... only time will tell.

Also -Brawn did NOT suggest the basic trim would not show up until the final test or the first race. His original stance was that they would start 2011 with a car that had front running potential. The he changed his tune to suggest the basic car would be used to reliability and tire s tests until the 3rd test, and "new" car would debut at test 3. When THAT didn't happen, the story was that the car would debut at test 4 and race in Bahrain. Bahrain was cancelled and as as far as I know, the new car is "supposed" to debut next week but- I'll beleive it when I see it.

My point is- to suggest Merc's progression has been true to Brawns word is just folly. Now- perhaps they'll pull things off and have a great car in Australia, but, it's fair to quuestion the wisdom of how this story has unfolded. One thing is certain- he will either be a hero or a zero based on this seasons results.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

@Jav

You read Brawns quotes, so regards the car there is no disputing what the team principle is saying. The car was designed intentionally with the proviso of understanding KERS and tyres befre adding anything considered performance enhancing.

Unless of course you know better, in which case Im all ears.

Secondly Mercedes initially started the W02 design in July, but due to Pirelli not having fundamental data available for its 2011 tyre, Mercedes were hamstrung by what they could forge ahead with. The round black things stung Mercedes in 2010, and they would be damned if it happened again in 2011.
Knowing this, Brawn set his stall out with the express intention of understand as much as is possible for 2011. Hence why they had the nearest 2011 spec car in Bahrain's final test last year, complete with Active rear Wing.

That was December 2010.

Now going into the winter break the team may have had 2 or 3 avenues to play with dependant entirely on which way Pirelli had gone. So with a contingency plan the team will have done as many miles with KERS(new for them) and the tyres so that the numbers could be crunched.
That has been done, Brawn has said many many times, wait til the last test. They could have developed 2 development path for the W02...is that too hard to concieve?
Especially in light of the all or nothing W01 which screwed them in light of homologation.

So with a longer lead time, it means nothing with a new tyre supplier unless they had accurate raw data to begin with.....not even Pirelli had that.

And forgive me for saying, but Mercedes have employed a Michelin tyre expert so they do not suffer the kind of problems they had in 2007/8/9/10. Its an area the team are very sensitive too, so its very understandable why they have adopted this approach. But they can only go with real data.

In the end, armchair experts can sit and snipe all day, but if they could do better...believe me they wouldnt be criticising Brawn and Mercedes for
adopting a step by step approach to 2011 in the face of Historical precedent with this team and tyres.