Mercedes - the eternal debating abyss.

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turbof1
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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Pierce89 wrote:
back on topic: I see no reason why a true "Mercedes" should be based anywhere other than Germany. Toyota's Cologne based TMG actually started getting quite competitive in their last 2 seasons.
Toyota always had relative well good cars at the beginning of the seasons, but never succeeded in developing the car properly during the season. It has been said that the Japanese way of communicating was slow and took way too long for the decision-making process, effectively hindering progress.
#AeroFrodo

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Cocles
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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Yes, yes... no reason to prefer having the team in England, other than that's where most of the talent lives, so it'll be easier to make new hires and poach from other teams.

Are we really on geography now? Getting tough to think up new things to slam the team over?

I don't understand this thread anymore. If I was this disgusted with an F1 team, I'd avoid that thread... not spend endless amounts of time complaining on it. The idea of dedicating so much of my time to being negative... it's sad.

marcush.
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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absolutely.
I happen to work in the midst of all this ..and rest assured Stuttgart is "Deutsch" spoken and you can even see in a slight reaction in the area of eyebrowes if you happen to not have some sort of local colorit in your tongue...it´s even abit finer cut than calling it "Schwaebisch" methinks.....So it may not block your work totally but there are cultural horsejumps to take ,believe me.
Would a Stuttgart based Formula 1 team be a hit? i highly doubt this .Does Zetsche have an idea about all this .Probably not.
But he will have launched scenarios to transfer the outfit to Stuttgart making it all-german ..no question .Better said making it Affalterbach .As they already have major difficulty recruiting enough people ...this all stopped soon methinks rightly so ..even if it were for the wrong reasons.
Mercedes formula 1 in Stuttgart ? Never -never successful-Project planning would not allow for this to happen in less than say three years ..We would have heard already if this was the plan or even considered.

xpensive
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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Cocles wrote: ...
Are we really on geography now? Getting tough to think up new things to slam the team over?
...
Any ideas there Coc?

As for myself, it's enough to visualize DrZ being conned by a journo and a workshop-technician, I can dwell on that forever.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

wunderkind
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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xpensive wrote:
Cocles wrote: ...
Are we really on geography now? Getting tough to think up new things to slam the team over?
...
Any ideas there Coc?

As for myself, it's enough to visualize DrZ being conned by a journo and a workshop-technician, I can dwell on that forever.
I don't think Dr Zetsche was conned by Haug and Brawn into acquiring Brawn GP. Those of us who have dealt with the Germans would know the length and depth they go to in analyzing everything. I would be extremely surprised if the acquisition of Brawn was a shot from the hip by Dr Zetsche and the Daimler Supervisory Board.

I still think the acquisition was the consequence of the difficult relationship they had with McLaren, more specifically Ron Dennis. Ron basically told the Mercedes contingent to butt out of the operations of the team and they had no right of telling him and his staff what to do. Mercedes would have put up with Ron if McLaren was winning. But McLaren-Mercedes was not winning the Drivers and Constructors Championships Mercedes had hoped even though the Mercedes engine was the best on the grid for some time. The 2009 championship was the only one in how many years, X?

Despite McLaren's technical prowess, they were not immune to making duds. How many times have we seen McLaren pushing things too far and end up starting the season with a weak car and threw away championships it should have won?

With the money Mercedes have poured into McLaren F1 racing and the SLR program. THe success, or lack thereof, they were achieving, there was a strong case to be made that Mercedes could have got the job done with the more frugal, Mercedes branded Brawn GP outfit with a new technical team and Schumacher and Rosberg in the driving seat.

Yes, success is still yet to come but Mercedes is getting the exposure it wants with a Mercedes branded team at a lower cost (once the new rules are in place and the RRA are ratified).

Some of you have serious ill-feelings about Brawn's technical abilities, but teams under his watch have won more championships in the last 20 years than anyone except Adrian Newey. Btw, Brawn's Jaguar sportscars in the late 1980's weren't too shabby either. X, get your head around this fact and you'd be a much happier man.

marcush.
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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maybe a similar commitee of experts as those who lured BMW into selling their assets to a fraudster a few years ago and only Mr.Sauber and his feel for responsibility saved the whole operation from going down the drain.. :lol:

Russell King /Quadbak anyone?

I don´t believe in any of those experts who fill their poackets just as quickly as Brawn and Fry selling consulting expertise to the board of a company....
I well remember the surprise that hit the parties involved in that PAG -VW merger as in the final moment they suddenly realised that a few quid would be payable in terms of taxes....a negligeable sum of 1.7Billion .if I remember correctly.. =D>
what ?? we have to pay taxes ? for what ,since when? :lol: :lol:

xpensive
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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wunderkind wrote: ...
Some of you have serious ill-feelings about Brawn's technical abilities, but teams under his watch have won more championships in the last 20 years than anyone except Adrian Newey. Btw, Brawn's Jaguar sportscars in the late 1980's weren't too shabby either. X, get your head around this fact and you'd be a much happier man.
RB is technically-wise nothing and never was, just a street-smart bloke who happened to make important friends.

As for his time at Jaguar, I think most people realize that Tony Southgate was the design-engineer in charge?

Nothing of his time as TP of MGP/AMG is suggesting anything else to be honest.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

marcush.
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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before entering the namecalling -what about this:

http://sidepodcast.com/post/qadbak-how- ... went-wrong

Certainly BMW ,who are considered being a lot more clever /smart than DAI ..it looks like they were just taken for a ride like foolish amateurs...
isn´t it funny in this little piece the names of Brawn and Mr.E appear as well??? coincidence? :mrgreen:

marcush.
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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http://www.motorsport-total.com/f1/news ... 20505.html

Btw here it is black on white - by ross himself: the money is not flowing immediately ,it will be released in portions and is bound to my involvement to the team...

COULD it be Brawn was forced to keep his role as Team pricipal in the original deal and now tries everything to receive the kick -But zetsche does not want to fork out the 80 something Mill € at once so has to bite the bullet and look on as Brawn tries to make a mess off this just to be released early and get the f..g money? :lol: :lol:
Last edited by marcush. on 05 Aug 2012, 16:39, edited 1 time in total.

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SeijaKessen
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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marcush. wrote:http://www.motorsport-total.com/f1/news ... 20505.html

Btw here it is black on white - by ross himself: the money is not flowing immediately ,it will be released in portions and is bound to my involvement to the team...

COULD it be Brawn was forced to keep his role as Team pricipal in the original deal and now tries everything to receive the kick -But zetsche does not want to fork out the 80 something Mill € at once so has to bite the bullet and look on as Brawn tries to make a mess off this just to be released early and get the f..g money? :lol: :lol:
I think you are right after reading that link.

Ross pulled the scam of the century so far.

He's in illustrious company when one considers F1 history.

We can now put his name up there with Ron the Con, Flavio, Mosely, and Bernie, just to name a few.

When one considers the arc of MGP the last few years, Brawn has done as much as he can to avoid doing anything.

This year might be the absolute worst though.

Perhaps they will have a new steering wheel when they come to Spa?

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SeijaKessen
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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Cocles wrote:Yes, yes... no reason to prefer having the team in England, other than that's where most of the talent lives, so it'll be easier to make new hires and poach from other teams.

Are we really on geography now? Getting tough to think up new things to slam the team over?

I don't understand this thread anymore. If I was this disgusted with an F1 team, I'd avoid that thread... not spend endless amounts of time complaining on it. The idea of dedicating so much of my time to being negative... it's sad.
Cocles...do you remember the Barnard days at Ferrari?

How well did that really work out?

munudeges
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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xpensive wrote:In the mean time, he's giving up on this farce and has ordered RB to downsize, only to find out that Bell the Well, Will the Thrill and the Italian Stallion has all been given bullet-proof contracts which will cost an arm and a leg to break out of.
That raises an important question X. Do they even care any more now they know the writing is on the wall? The decline in form and lack of any determination to improve leads you to ask why. People like Bell and especially Willis should have been able to pull something out to keep them on terms. One wonders whether they have tried to make pulling out prohibitively expensive for Merc in some desperate fashion and Willis in particular has already thrown the towel in - again.

I have given up understanding the politics behind this team. It is still BAR, still as useless as BAR and it still stinks to high heaven.

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SeijaKessen
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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munudeges wrote:
xpensive wrote:In the mean time, he's giving up on this farce and has ordered RB to downsize, only to find out that Bell the Well, Will the Thrill and the Italian Stallion has all been given bullet-proof contracts which will cost an arm and a leg to break out of.
That raises an important question X. Do they even care any more now they know the writing is on the wall? The decline in form and lack of any determination to improve leads you to ask why. People like Bell and especially Willis should have been able to pull something out to keep them on terms. One wonders whether they have tried to make pulling out prohibitively expensive for Merc in some desperate fashion and Willis in particular has already thrown the towel in - again.

I have given up understanding the politics behind this team. It is still BAR, still as useless as BAR and it still stinks to high heaven.
I would say there is a great book in all of this.

Someone could definitely write a nice book on the lack of management involved with MGP as a cautionary tale not just for other race teams, but for businesses in general.

The entire situation revolving around MGP seems to me a clear case of the inmates running the asylum.

The warden so to speak in Ross Brawn basically has chosen to do nothing because either way he is getting paid, and there isn't much that can be done right now. He received the massive payment for selling to MGP. What incentive does he have left to do anything. No matter what happens to MGP, he isn't losing the buyout money.

It also brings up the subject of how important Ross truly was to the success that was had at both Benetton, and Ferrari.

Some here are rather insistent that Ross was an integral part, if not the defining part of what caused both teams to achieve success.

In fact, this story continues to be perpetuated across the world; Ross Brawn led the Scuderia to multiple World Championships due to his cunning abilities as a strategist. Even his Wikipedia page says the infamous words of "the Brawn-led Scuderia..." which is rather disingenuous at best. Yet no one seems to be able to give any account of just what it was the man did at Benetton and Ferrari, other than regurgitating the job description of technical director as apparent proof his being in that position, he definitely did what the standard TD does.

It also ignores the fact that Ross had two strong team principals, and a strong designer during those two stints. That says infinitely more about who was really responsible at both teams for the combined 7 World Championships.

For such a master of the technical, Ross has been in over his head at MGP for the last few years.

bhall
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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SeijaKessen wrote:[...]

Someone could definitely write a nice book on the lack of management involved with MGP as a cautionary tale not just for other race teams, but for businesses in general.

[...]
The Anti-Kaizen: From Tyrrell to Turds

marcush.
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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You need to look only as far as:Briatore and Todt and their cVs to realise who was instrumental in the success stories...
I read something about Brawn characterising him a guy quite good in detaildesign and shop floor organisation bringing some
common sense to rory Byrnes wild ideas ...
I´m pretty sure there are a lot of Brawns around ,I know several but kudos to him the guy is rich now and team principal of Mercedes Grand Prix even though there is not much to write home about in these three years.

WHAT IF Brawn was only the figuring as team principal in 2009 and the deal was done already in 2008/9 and all what we see these days is not more than a sophisticated fingerpulling game of Brawn (Ecclestone?) and DAI? I just cannot believe how patient Zetsche and the board are ..this is just not what one would expect.It certainly has the smell of Brawn having a trumpcard up his sleave and some guys have a big fear he is going to play it...83Mill € plus annual retainer... #-o

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