Racing games

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Alonso Fan
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Re: Racing games

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mertol wrote:Codemasters suck at making realistic games. I really hope you didn't give them your money. The physics in f1 2013 are terrible, the FFB is terrible, there is also some kind of speed sensitive steering that you can't turn off, graphics are quite bad for a 2013 game too. There really isn't anything I liked about this game.
i agree, although i would say the graphics are better than most
Emerson.F wrote:
Alonso Fan wrote:Yeah, i guess the ps and xbox games these days don't focus that much on realistic physics. As long as it feels good then they'll sell it. Ah well, that's why we've all got older games to look to :)
FM5 has worked will Calspan, Mclaren and Audi for tyre, vehicle dynamics and openwheel suspension physics simulation. The physics are pretty realistic with a good steering wheel and besides that the new rumble triggers in the Xbox one controller give the game unprecedented haptic feedback. Btw the other high end sims are such a small market and are a whole different catogory of gamers (players)

Plus those games dont have hundreds of cars like gt of forza and mostly lack upgrades and other game options.
I heard project cars does not have Ai yet.So its a Hotlap simulator.(a good one at that) but very small in content compared too others out there.

I'm still playing F1 2012, RacePro 2, FM4, FM5 and previously owned gt5.
very true

i actually forgot about forza. That actually has decent physics, but probably not that good f1 physics but there again, it doesn't need it.

i would probably buy forza 5 if i had an xbox, and some more time...
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SectorOne
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Re: Racing games

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Emerson.F wrote:FM5 has worked with Calspan, Mclaren and Audi for tyre, vehicle dynamics and openwheel suspension physics simulation. The physics are pretty realistic with a good steering wheel
Problem is it´s not even close to some of the PC sims.

The tire data is canned data i would presume and not a proper theoretical tire model where you put in your tire data and the model spits out the numbers. DK from iRacing has for example spent the last 5 years building his tire model.

the problem with earlier tire models have been that they stop working at very low speeds (some sims you can feel the transition phase) and that it works fine inside the limit but once you go past the limit the cars start to behave very odd.

Then Kunos (Assetto Corsa) and Rfactor actually build simulator software for real racing teams.
You really can´t compare console titles and PC simulators.
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"

Emerson.F
Emerson.F
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Re: Racing games

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SectorOne wrote:
Emerson.F wrote:FM5 has worked with Calspan, Mclaren and Audi for tyre, vehicle dynamics and openwheel suspension physics simulation. The physics are pretty realistic with a good steering wheel
Problem is it´s not even close to some of the PC sims.

The tire data is canned data i would presume and not a proper theoretical tire model where you put in your tire data and the model spits out the numbers. DK from iRacing has for example spent the last 5 years building his tire model.

the problem with earlier tire models have been that they stop working at very low speeds (some sims you can feel the transition phase) and that it works fine inside the limit but once you go past the limit the cars start to behave very odd.

Then Kunos (Assetto Corsa) and Rfactor actually build simulator software for real racing teams.
You really can´t compare console titles and PC simulators.
Funny you say that, FM4 already had direct data from Pirelli after they set up specific tests needed too simulate tyre heat and deformations. Fm2 already had Live telemetry whereby you could see everything from inner and outer tyre temperatures to friction and Psi. In FM5 they've gone even further.

http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/1476/1179521661.jpg
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SectorOne
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Re: Racing games

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Seeing inner and outer temps and psi and everything you could have on Mariokart if you wanted, it means nothing.

The data from Pirelli is most likely canned data where they get a graph and they get maximum and minimum temps, deformation when a certain load is put on it etc.

I doubt it actively reacts to the environment like if you drove a race in cold Silverstone or one in Laguna Seca.
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"

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mertol
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Re: Racing games

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The screenshot above doesn't show inner and outer temps. It's not even surface temps. It's the temperature of the air in the tires. One of the 2 temp or pressure is calculated from the other. You can see that temp/pressure gives the same number for all tires (convert it in kelvins first).

krisfx
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Re: Racing games

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What do people think to project CARS?

Also, F1 2013 is pretty good if you install a load of mods, I've currently got the LED lights on the wheel set to how they are in real life, as well as helmet texture mods. The physics and the apparent lack of decent tyre wear simulation below 100% is killer, though.

Emerson.F
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Re: Racing games

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mertol wrote:The screenshot above doesn't show inner and outer temps. It's not even surface temps. It's the temperature of the air in the tires. One of the 2 temp or pressure is calculated from the other. You can see that temp/pressure gives the same number for all tires (convert it in kelvins first).
Wrong. Each tyre has different rotating speeds and very different tyres temperatures true out its surface. It simulates inner, middle and outer tyre temps, rotational speeds, camber, Psi and wear for each tyre separatly.

Here's an example of all telemetry data. These have been present almost all FM games. GT has still to include something that comes close.

SectorOne wrote:Seeing inner and outer temps and psi and everything you could have on Mariokart if you wanted, it means nothing.

The data from Pirelli is most likely canned data where they get a graph and they get maximum and minimum temps, deformation when a certain load is put on it etc.

I doubt it actively reacts to the environment like if you drove a race in cold Silverstone or one in Laguna Seca.
No its not, they asked Pirelli to do specific test for FM4. This is een excerpt from an interview about FM5. Imo the tyres are very realisticly modelled. I can feel my car being more reactive and responsive when my tyres are reaching optimal temparature. And also notice them being overheating when i lock my wheels up to much.

“Tyres,” Greenawalt says, with a full stop. Forza 4 simulated tyre flex using variables ported directly into the game from Pirelli’s own test data, but Greenawalt wanted more.

“I was asking Pirelli, ‘These tyre curves you have, this data… how are you isolating camber from wear from pressure and so on?’” he says. “Pirelli’s take was, ‘We don’t and [you can’t]’. So we found a new partner for Forza 5: Calspan. Calspan is not a name that anybody knows, unless you’re an engineer. The testing that Pirelli was doing on their tyres is called Calspan testing; that’s what all the tyre manufacturers use. [Calspan’s] take was different to Pirelli. It said, ‘We’ll need palettes of tyres,’ so we bought palettes of tyres and sent them to Calspan and [it] did two weeks of testing – morning, noon and night – isolating these variables. We now know things about Pirelli tyres that Pirelli doesn’t know about Pirelli tyres. We know things about Toyo and Yokohama that are going to help write the textbooks in two or three years.”


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Lycoming
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Re: Racing games

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That quote only talks about tire data, and doesn't say anything about how they created a model from that data. In particularly when he talks about tire flex, I'm curious, because tire deformation is nonlinear and involves high degrees of hysteresis. I wonder to what degree they are simulating that on the Xbox's hardware which, despite it being a "next gen" console, is really not that powerful.

Emerson.F
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Re: Racing games

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Lycoming wrote:That quote only talks about tire data, and doesn't say anything about how they created a model from that data. In particularly when he talks about tire flex, I'm curious, because tire deformation is nonlinear and involves high degrees of hysteresis. I wonder to what degree they are simulating that on the Xbox's hardware which, despite it being a "next gen" console, is really not that powerful.
I dont think Calspan nor T10 will make that information available, so that your tough luck.
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mertol
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LOL. Nice pirelli data - tires at 230° F, hardly 1 degree difference across the sides and temps hardly changing regardless of whether the car is drifting or just rolling. This video is not helping your point.

Here is what real telemetry looks like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpQFKD8h7z0

Emerson.F
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Re: Racing games

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mertol wrote:LOL. Nice pirelli data - tires at 230° F, hardly 1 degree difference across the sides and temps hardly changing regardless of whether the car is drifting or just rolling. This video is not helping your point.

Here is what real telemetry looks like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRyq1CljkYk
Your video doesn't prove anything but you not getting the point. The graphic i posted is a screen from the designers. It's not ingame, its just a visual representation of what the graphics would look like.

Now try again.
Last edited by Emerson.F on Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mertol
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Re: Racing games

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The point is there are no sims for consoles. You try again. Also the video you posted sure is ingame footage.

Emerson.F
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mertol wrote:The point is there are no sims for consoles. You try again. Also the video you posted sure is ingame footage.
That's your opinion mate. I race in real life and i can tell you FM5 is a sim, and a good one at that. Its ingame footage. :wtf:

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mertol
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You are telling me this is the best consoles can offer? That's worse than NFS shift on the PC for example so no sim there. It's so bad I can tell it's fudged just by watching the video.

Emerson.F
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mertol wrote:What try? I disproved its realism from the first try. You are telling me this is the best consoles can offer? That's worse than NFS shift on the PC for example so no sim there. It's so bad I can tell it's fudged just by watching the video.
NFS Shift? For your sake I hope thats sarcasm.

Yes it is the best sim you can get on console. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uczwfIx5UR0
Last edited by Emerson.F on Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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