Vintage F1 compared to today's supercars

[Andres125sx]

I´d rather prefer to drive a vintage F1 car, but I´d be extremelly carefull as those cars were far from safe in case of an accident


Problem is today we´re used to a very different safety standard.

Think about this analogy, the air conditioner of my car is broken, and here in spain we´re close to 40ºC. When the car has been parked in the sun it is so stifling I can´t understand how did I cope with this in my first 10 years with a driving licence when all my cars had no AC

You get used. Back then I didn´t know AC, so it was normal. Today, after enjoing AC for years, now if it breaks it´s way more stifling than it was 20 years back.

Same with safety, in 70s those cars and those tracks where standard, people didn´t know anything better so they were happy with that. It´s not that those drivers had bigger balls than current ones like I read frequently, it was ´normal´ for them. Today, when racing fatalities are far from common, that safety level looks simply unaceptable


I´d prefer driving a vintage F1 car because it´s a vintage F1 car, but if I´d have the oportunity to do some laps with one of those and also an equally fast modern supercar, I´m sure I´d be much faster with the supercar because I´d drive it much more relaxed

[Greg Locock]

Funny innit. We have two people who have done it saying they were easy (ish) to drive, and the rest based on whatever saying whatever. That's the internet.

[djos]

Funny innit. We have two people who have done it saying they were easy (ish) to drive, and the rest based on whatever saying whatever. That's the internet.

No one is saying they are hard to drive, we are saying they are dangerous in a crash if you screw up... Humans make mistakes, this is a fact.

[Andres125sx]

Funny innit. We have two people who have done it saying they were easy (ish) to drive, and the rest based on whatever saying whatever. That's the internet.

Who said the contrary? Difficulty to drive and passive safety are not even related

But you know, that´s the internet

[Greg Locock]

I've always heard journalist say F1 etc. cars being very hard to drive because nothing really "works" unless you drive fast enough to get everything int the working window, which you can't because nothing "works"

Sounds relevant

[Andres125sx]

I've always heard journalist say F1 etc. cars being very hard to drive because nothing really "works" unless you drive fast enough to get everything int the working window, which you can't because nothing "works"

Sounds relevant

I´d bet that journalist was talking about current F1 cars, not 60-70s F1s. Current F1 cars need the brakes at a very high temperature to work (unlike vintage F1 cars with steel brakes) and also current tires need to be over 90ºC (depending on the compound) to work. Current DF levels put so much stress on the tires they need to be a lot more resistant than old F1 tires, wich means they need to reach a temperature to offer desired grip levels

But with steel brakes and no aero (vintage F1 car) both the brakes and tires work at ´any´ temperature, so obviously the requirements are completely different and the car works even if you´re going slow

[J.A.W.]

1970s F1 had basic aero-downforce to be sure, but they were light, nimble cars, & had a large tyre contact patch..

Greg's pointed comment about the relevance of current-ish F1 issues to the thread topic, is of course - valid.

The report I quoted includes comment from the writer - who also races a vintage Lola F 5000 - which he states
presents as much more of a 'tiger by the tail' prospect, fast lappery-wise, than a 'pursang' F1 car - of the era..

[mertol]

The tires in the 60s were very hard and durable. They even used the same set for more than 1 weekend. Their optimal temp was high too.

[Belatti]

OK, not a street legal car, but last month I was passenger of a Pagani Zonda Revolución at COTA. We were lapping at 2m05s with Pirelli slicks and after I (and my 76kgs) stepped down, the driver lapped in the 2m03s region. He was not pushing at a 100% (we were not racing, just having fun) and it was a really really hot day. The car worked well but after 3 or 4 laps you could tell tyres and brakes where starting to overheat a bit. That same driver in the same day, lapped 2m12s with a Lamborghini Huracan Supertrofeo (race car, not street legal, too).

I think a modern F1 car lapped 1m36s in 2014 as 2015 was wet, still during the race they did 1m40s.
WEC pole time was 1m45s.

I think the main problem of today supercars is weight. They are powerful enough but they are heavy, mainly to comply with safety standards. Being a powerful overweight beast does not help you in the tight sections, where you can not use your power and are not nimble enough. The Zonda Revolución weights 1070Kg and has 800HP, impressive numbers.... but still 400Kg more than a modern hybrid F1 car and 500Kg more than a vintage F1.

[J.A.W.]

Well ofcourse he drove it at a modern race track and probably not very close to the limit and with modern tires. The tracks were very bumpy back then. From what I experienced in simulators the cars are all over the place on bumpy tracks like oulton park, bathurst or nordschleife.

He drove it at Silverstone, as noted, which is a 'heritage' track, & as a current race driver of a classic F5000,
he was certainly able to determine its capabilities - for real, & not merely as a 'simulation' - of dubious validity.

[J.A.W.]

OK, not a street legal car, but last month I was passenger of a Pagani Zonda Revolución at COTA. We were lapping at 2m05s with Pirelli slicks and after I (and my 76kgs) stepped down, the driver lapped in the 2m03s region. He was not pushing at a 100% (we were not racing, just having fun) and it was a really really hot day. The car worked well but after 3 or 4 laps you could tell tyres and brakes where starting to overheat a bit. That same driver in the same day, lapped 2m12s with a Lamborghini Huracan Supertrofeo (race car, not street legal, too).

I think a modern F1 car lapped 1m36s in 2014 as 2015 was wet, still during the race they did 1m40s.
WEC pole time was 1m45s.

I think the main problem of today supercars is weight. They are powerful enough but they are heavy, mainly to comply with safety standards. Being a powerful overweight beast does not help you in the tight sections, where you can not use your power and are not nimble enough. The Zonda Revolución weights 1070Kg and has 800HP, impressive numbers.... but still 400Kg more than a modern hybrid F1 car and 500Kg more than a vintage F1.

Fair points B, I note the quickest lap at COTA for a Moto GP bike ( modern rubber but sans aero-downforce)
is a 2m02 flat, by Mark Marquez, but again, those times are done on race rubber, that has to last the whole race.

As for A-125mx's fantasy - that being 'relaxed' would make him able to lap a 'fully loaded'( fat/luxury edition)
current road-legal supercar - quicker than a pursang racecar of the 1970's, you've shown that up for what its worth..

[Andres125sx]

As for A-125mx's fantasy - that being 'relaxed' would make him able to lap a 'fully loaded'( fat/luxury edition)
current road-legal supercar - quicker than a pursang racecar of the 1970's, you've shown that up for what its worth..

First, you could try learning people´s nicks, it is not that difficult, not even for yourself

Second, you shouldn´t call fantasy to what people think. You may disagree, but that does not mean your opinion is any more relevant than mine or any other, specially when the object of discussion is about what car would allow me to be faster... Or maybe you know what are my strong and weak points so you know in what car I will fell more confident?

Please stop trolling, I know it´s difficult for you, but please try it

[J.A.W.]

As for A-125mx's fantasy - that being 'relaxed' would make him able to lap a 'fully loaded'( fat/luxury edition)
current road-legal supercar - quicker than a pursang racecar of the 1970's, you've shown that up for what its worth..

First, you could try learning people´s nicks, it is not that difficult, not even for yourself

Second, you shouldn´t call fantasy to what people think. You may disagree, but that does not mean your opinion is any more relevant than mine or any other, specially when the object of discussion is about what car would allow me to be faster... Or maybe you know what are my strong and weak points so you know in what car I will fell more confident?

Please stop trolling, I know it´s difficult for you, but please try it

I simply could remark that such "fantasy" opinions amount to "trolling" & so yeah, I should really, just ignore them..
-but I'll explain why I haven't...

What "other people think" is entirely up to them, but when those thoughts are presented on a technical forum,
then obviously, they are intended to be up for such an appraisal, in terms of evidence base/technical merit, no?

& if, when examined - those thoughts are shown to be worthless in adding to the thread topic, then,
- even if amounting to a frank admission of lack of confidence in one's own driving ability - it is surely, "trolling"...
... which you may now "please stop" doing, if that's ok with you - Andres?

[Andres125sx]

As for A-125mx's fantasy - that being 'relaxed' would make him able to lap a 'fully loaded'( fat/luxury edition)
current road-legal supercar - quicker than a pursang racecar of the 1970's, you've shown that up for what its worth..

First, you could try learning people´s nicks, it is not that difficult, not even for yourself

Second, you shouldn´t call fantasy to what people think. You may disagree, but that does not mean your opinion is any more relevant than mine or any other, specially when the object of discussion is about what car would allow me to be faster... Or maybe you know what are my strong and weak points so you know in what car I will fell more confident?

Please stop trolling, I know it´s difficult for you, but please try it

I simply could remark that such "fantasy" opinions amount to "trolling" & so yeah, I should really, just ignore them..
-but I'll explain why I haven't...

What "other people think" is entirely up to them, but when those thoughts are presented on a technical forum,
then obviously, they are intended to be up for such an appraisal, in terms of evidence base/technical merit, no?

Yes, agree

& if, when examined - those thoughts are shown to be worthless in adding to the thread topic

If you read the thread title, you´ll notice it goes about vintage F1 cars compared to modern supercars. Once you´ve noticed this, you probably will realize comparing vintage F1 cars safety to modern supercars safety is anything but worthless to the thread topic

- even if amounting to a frank admission of lack of confidence in one's own driving ability - it is surely, "trolling"...
... which you may now "please stop" doing, if that's ok with you - Andres?

My selfconfidence in my driving ability is fine, but that does not mean I´m a teenager who don´t know what risks he´s assuming. If trying to be fast with a racing car on a track, you´re assuming some risks. Maybe you´re so arrogant that you think you will never have an accident, not even if trying to do a fast lap with a car wich is not yours , but some of us are a lot more responsible and conscious of the risks we assume

[J.A.W.]

Responsible indeed.

Many years ago I had a race-tuned 750cc 2T Kawasaki motorcycle at a race circuit club day 'test & tune'.
There were a number of car guys there too.

One Porsche owner was also a bike fan & he offered me a drive in his `73 RS Carrera in return for a go on
my bike.

We exchanged relevant operational info & agreed not to push limits to crash risk level, but enough to get a
real sense of what the machines were capable of.
While neither of us were 'relaxed', since deliberate concentration was required, it was a fun experience.

I have driven a number of fast road cars, & they are 'soft' for comfort - as the race-prepped Porsche was raw,
noisy & unsuitable as an everyday road-goer, (& the same goes for the bike), but once on the track, its elemental.