Last & Best of the Piston Engine Fighter Aircraft.

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J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Re: Last & Best of the Piston Engine Fighter Aircraft.

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T-C, AFAIR, both Wilkinson & Lumsden record the listed Sabre 7 take-off rating of 3,500hp @ +20lbs on ADI..
Other authors also note Sabre dyno-testing regimes such 3,750hp for 100hrs straight, with no limits on fuel/cooling.

That the Sabre came good just when the RAF went jet-bent, is one of the quirks of history, & that the British hadn't been
organised to produced such a well developed mill in good time & useful production numbers for wartime , is an indictment
on their industrial organisation, but I suppose ~5,000 Sabres were better than ~500 Vultures that didn't fly.. for long.

As for 'Pilots Notes', the Spit Mk 14 notes carry advisement re: take-off power settings/tyre stress..
..but I have yet to see a set of P-N's for the Tempest Mk 6 with the changes from the earlier Mk 5, incorporated.

With 800+, Tempests did get the 'lions share' of those V1 cruise missiles downed by aircraft, & of course aircraft
could be vectored onto the missiles, whereas AAA had to be sited within range of the flight track.

Tempest pilots remarked on the ability of the Sabre to cruise at high power-settings/speed & thus be in both a better
position to usefully intercept V1's, & later over the continent, contend with the faster German aircraft.

The Tempest also carried the RAF 4 X 20mm cannon fit ( deemed a standard for new fighters, since 1940) but this was a
bit weighty in practice for most Spits to cope with ( & 6 X 0.50" HMG's would be even heavier, & less effective).

None of the turbo-charged, or R-2800 radial powered fighters available in Britian in 1944 had the speed at low-level to
be effective for V1 pursuits, & even the Griffon Spitfires had mainbearing issues with + 25lb boost settings.

Bob Spurdle was CO of 80 Sqd flying Tempests in 1944 ( replacing "dainty" Spits), but he was very lucky to have survived
the mid-air disintegration of Spitfire P7364 which he was diving in hard pursuit of a Bf 109 during the BoB, back in 1940.
Dr Moreau sez..
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J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Re: Last & Best of the Piston Engine Fighter Aircraft.

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Tommy Cookers wrote: ...the Sabres smaller bore and much shorter stroke would seem ideal for poppet valves (given the fuel quality revolution)
Sabre funding was maintained both to keep a sleeve-valve foot in the liquid-cooled door, and a reserve engine for the Vulture
Frank Halford would not agree, he'd raced a 4V Ricardo-Triumph at the IoM TT,
& had significant experience with ohc poppet valves , even automatic hydraulic lash types, for Napier..

As Roy Fedden noted, per the S-V unencumbered head/combustion chamber-comp ratio/spark plug location, & gas flow advantages..
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/ ... 02830.html

& even R-R had done the "if you can't beat them, join them" routine with the admission that X-types were impracticable..
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/ ... 00625.html

The final piston engine Hawker Fury flew with all 3 big Brit production aero-mills Centaurus/Griffon/Sabre,
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/ ... Flight.pdf & while performing best with the Sabre, sold with the Centaurus.
Dr Moreau sez..
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tok-tokkie
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Re: Last & Best of the Piston Engine Fighter Aircraft.

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J.A.W. This link does not work. Can you fix it or has it been removed.
Here is the mil-spec test data for the Corsair powered by the massive P & W R-4360 'corncob' engine,
with 3,000hp at sea-level pushing it to 399mph (clean, but with fixed/capped ordnance pylons).
http://alternatewars.com/SAC/F2G-2_Supe ... 944_(Tommy).pdf

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Re: Last & Best of the Piston Engine Fighter Aircraft.

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Apologies T-T; try this link, & scroll down to the particular item.. http://www.alternatewars.com/SAC/SAC.htm
Dr Moreau sez..
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Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Re: Last & Best of the Piston Engine Fighter Aircraft.

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J.A.W. wrote: .....both Wilkinson & Lumsden record the listed Sabre 7 take-off rating of 3,500hp @ +20lbs on ADI..
..........As for 'Pilots Notes', the Spit Mk 14 notes carry advisement re: take-off power settings/tyre stress..
..........4 X 20mm cannon fit .......( & 6 X 0.50" HMG's would be even heavier, & less effective).
the Sabre 7 would give 18.75 lb boost @ sea level, calculated from 17.25 lb @ 2250'
and the hp/altitude plot you supplied p552 22/11/45 Flight implies no more than 3300 hp @ sea level auto throttle WO
clear agreement (suggesting no engine supplied ever gave 3500 hp)
ie if there was autothrottle cutout for TO the engines supplied could have made 3300 hp @ TO
EDITED 18th - JAW flight archive posted 18th - Sabre NS93SM power is exactly as in power/altitude plot above (2760 hp ADI @12500')

3500 hp may well have been possible at 20 lb boost, but that needed higher supercharger gearing than that supplied
and the 1947 Eagle power/boost/altitude seem more realistic than the 45 Sabre plots - or maybe rules were tightened postwar ?
the practicalities of rating are mindboggling - eg Napier had a 400 mph ram (throughout??) but what about exhaust/altitude simulation ?

the ADI was 60% methanol, ie lots of evaporative cooling from the water and quite a lot from the methanol
physical chemistry says the ADI quantity supplied was about 4x the quantity of any petrol fuel it replaced
the ADI/petrol proportions were 35/65 in MS and 70/30 in FS
a unit mass of air will yield 11% more heat combusting with methanol, in comparison with petrol
(motor sport fans often forget this aspect - ethanol similarly yields about 5% more heat)

the Sabre's manifolds flow capability (eg 4 psi was lost near some ports) was significantly less than the sleeve ports flow capability
presumably the Eagle had the same design constraints


Roger ! , the Mk 14 notes

6x 50 cals and ammo are lighter and smaller than 4x 20mm, high rof and lethal range better suited to fighter vs fighter - said W Cdr Allen
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Sat Jun 18, 2016 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

tok-tokkie
tok-tokkie
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Re: Last & Best of the Piston Engine Fighter Aircraft.

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J.A.W. wrote:Apologies T-T; try this link, & scroll down to the particular item.. http://www.alternatewars.com/SAC/SAC.htm
That is an impressive list - but American 'planes only?

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Re: Last & Best of the Piston Engine Fighter Aircraft.

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T-C, re: Sabre boost/hp figures, Len Setright wrote that he'd read the Napier factory data,
& that on dyno-testing they'd run it at boost levels - up to +45lb..

Certainly, I haven't seen any mil-spec - flight test of the Sabre at +20lb, but it was officially 'rated' as available for take-off.
The increased figures such as specific power & BMEP listed by Wilkinson at +20lb , do appear to co-relate.

As for armaments, the Browning 0.50" was literally a 'heavy machine gun' & the Hispano 20mm cannon didn't weigh a lot more.
Effectiveness-wise the USN reckoned a 20mm cannon was worth three 0.5" MG's & duly replaced their 6 X 0.50" set-ups.

The RAF did fit a 0.5" Browning in the spare cannon wing bay on Spits, ( & deleted the outer wing .303's), when gyro-computing gunsights became available, & the better chance of a hit - deemed the fit worthwhile.

& the RAF originally specified their customer Mustangs as having the standard 4 X 20mm cannon fit, but later accepted
their Mustang III's with 4 X 0.5" MG's - while remarking on the "light" armament, dunno why they didn't retrofit cannon.
Dr Moreau sez..
"Who breaks the law... goes back to the House of Pain!"

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:10 am
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Re: Last & Best of the Piston Engine Fighter Aircraft.

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tok-tokkie wrote:
J.A.W. wrote:Apologies T-T; try this link, & scroll down to the particular item.. http://www.alternatewars.com/SAC/SAC.htm
That is an impressive list - but American 'planes only?
Hey tikky-tok, you welcome..
..but if you're greedy, then here's the piston-era Ruskis.. http://www.rkka.es/aviones/aviones_index.htm
Dr Moreau sez..
"Who breaks the law... goes back to the House of Pain!"

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Re: Last & Best of the Piston Engine Fighter Aircraft.

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Here are some Hawker Sabre-Fury mil-spec performance figures, from a period 'Flight' mag. ( See column , lower right of page)
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/ ... 02181.html

&, here, also from 'Flight' is a table showing how the Fury/Sea Fury compared with the M-B 5, & other Brit fighters of the day.
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/ ... 00012.html
Dr Moreau sez..
"Who breaks the law... goes back to the House of Pain!"

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Re: Last & Best of the Piston Engine Fighter Aircraft.

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Here is another 'Flight' review of the MB-5, https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive ... 02144.html
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ds.raikkonen
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Re: Last & Best of the Piston Engine Fighter Aircraft.

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The FW 190 too was a great aircraft:
Image
Read in some other forums that it was better than the Spitfire between 18k-22k ft., better in a dive, maneuverability etc.:
SPITFIRE IX VERSUS FW 190A

The FW190 was compared with a fully operational Spitfire IX for speed and manoeuvrability at heights up to 25,000 feet [7620 metres].

At most heights the Spitfire IX is slightly superior in speed to the FW190 -
the approximate differences in speed are as follows:

At 2,000 ft [610 m] the FW 190 is 7-8 mph [11-13 km/hr] faster than the Spitfire
At 5,000 ft [1524 m] the FW 190 and the Spitfire are approximately the same
At 8,000 ft [2440 m] the Spitfire IX is 8 mph [13 km/hr] faster than the FW 190
At 15,000 ft [4573 m] the Spitfire IX is 5 mph [8 km/hr] faster than the FW 190
At 18,000 ft [5488 m] the FW 190 is 3 mph [5 km/hr] faster than the Spitfire IX
At 21,000 ft [6400 m] the FW 190 and the Spitfire are approximately the same
At 25,000 ft [7622 m] the Spitfire IX is 5-7 mph [8-11 km/hr] faster than the FW 190


Climb: During comparative climbs at various heights up to 23,000 feet [7012 metres], with both aircraft flying under maximum continuous climbing conditions, little difference was found between the two aircraft although on the whole the Spitfire was slightly better.

Above 22,000 feet [6707 m] the climb of the FW 190 is falling off rapidly, whereas the climb of the Spitfire IX is increasing.

Dive: The FW 190 is faster than the Spitfire IX in a dive, particularly during the initial stage. This superiority is not as marked as with the Spitfire VB.

Manoeuvrability: The FW 190 is more manoeuvrable than the Spitfire IX except in turning circles.
The superior rate of roll of the FW 190 enabled it to avoid the Spitfire IX by turning over into a diving turn in the opposite direction.

The Spitfire IX's worst heights for fighting the FW 190 were between 18,000 and 22,000 feet [5486-6707m] and also below 3,000 feet [914m].

The initial acceleration of the FW 190 is better than that of the Spitfire IX under all conditions of flight, except in level flight at altitudes where the Spitfire has a speed advantage.

The general impression of the pilots involved in the trials is that the Spitfire Mark IX compares well with the FW 190. Providing the Spitfire IX has the initiative, it undoubtedly stands a good chance of shooting down the FW 190.

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/s ... -190a.542/
“Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary...that’s what gets you.” - JC

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Re: Last & Best of the Piston Engine Fighter Aircraft.

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"Last & Best" FW 190s had V12 engines rather than the BMW radial, & 'L & B' Spitfires ran the bigger Griffon V12 too.

Spitfire Mk IX was an 'interim' ( lash-up) answer to the original FW 190, being a Mk V with a hi-po Merlin shoehorned into it.

The intended Spitfire replacement, & answer to the Focke-Wulf 'scourge' was the Hawker Typhoon, rushed into service like the FW 190.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/ ... Trials.pdf

This pre-mature entry into service caused needless losses, but both machines proved themselves, eventually.
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ds.raikkonen
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Re: Last & Best of the Piston Engine Fighter Aircraft.

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J.A.W. wrote:"Last & Best" FW 190s had V12 engines rather than the BMW radial, & 'L & B' Spitfires ran the bigger Griffon V12 too.

Spitfire Mk IX was an 'interim' ( lash-up) answer to the original FW 190, being a Mk V with a hi-po Merlin shoehorned into it.

The intended Spitfire replacement, & answer to the Focke-Wulf 'scourge' was the Hawker Typhoon, rushed into service like the FW 190.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/ ... Trials.pdf

This pre-mature entry into service caused needless losses, but both machines proved themselves, eventually.
Correct, it was the the same engine as in the tactical bomber Ju-88 (Jumo-213). Also, it ('D') was much longer than the original one and with a narrower nose, even with the circular radiator. It was shoe-horned into the FW cowl as the 190 struggled flying at B-17/24 & Lancashire altitude. Kurt Tank chose it as it was the nearest fit the the 190 cowl. Love the shape though, with a the narrower nose, it looked spectacular!
Image
“Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary...that’s what gets you.” - JC

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Re: Last & Best of the Piston Engine Fighter Aircraft.

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Here's a rare survivor FW 190 long-nose, it takes a bit of winding up, so go to ~5min in - if you want to hear it run.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y5LBUVS1T8
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Tommy Cookers
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Re: Last & Best of the Piston Engine Fighter Aircraft.

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with the benefit of the Spitfire experience emerged a rather standard type of wing design - eg on the Firefly and the Tempest
as the Spitfire wing was not of a 'laminar flow' section neither was the Tempest's

and I am not the only person who has referred to the Mustang's as a so-called 'laminar flow'
and of course 'laminar flow' benefits do not imply compressibility benefits
https://www.aerosociety.com/media/4953/ ... itfire.pdf
https://www.aerosociety.com/media/4843/ ... estion.pdf
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.