Last & Best of the Piston Engine Fighter Aircraft.

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J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Re: Last & Best of the Piston Engine Fighter Aircraft.

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T-C, according to Mason's 'The British Fighter Since 1912', the wing profile utilized by Supermarine for their Spitfire successor, & touted by them as 'laminar-flow' - was also an NPL (National Physical Laboratory) design..

So - it certainly seems that NACA didn't 'own'/trademark the 'laminar-flow' descriptor - as such, anyhow.
Dr Moreau sez..
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J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Re: Last & Best of the Piston Engine Fighter Aircraft.

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Here's a bit of thread topic news.. a racing Mustang speed record.. & a best speed run of 550+mph - is impressive..

http://www.vintageaviationecho.com/steve-o-prop-record
Dr Moreau sez..
"Who breaks the law... goes back to the House of Pain!"

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Mudflap
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Re: Last & Best of the Piston Engine Fighter Aircraft.

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Shameless plug alert!

An ex colleague is writing a book about ww2 piston engines, thought some of you might find it interesting:

http://www.calum-douglas.com/current-bo ... ower-race/
How much TQ does it make though?

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Re: Last & Best of the Piston Engine Fighter Aircraft.

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Mudflap wrote:
Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:58 pm
Shameless plug alert!

An ex colleague is writing a book about ww2 piston engines, thought some of you might find it interesting:

http://www.calum-douglas.com/current-bo ... ower-race/
Hey M-F, you could maybe let your ol' buddy Calum know.. that http://www.imeche.org - holds in its archive..
Napier technical papers inc' test data on their prodigious Sabre engine, which ought to be of interest - for his book..
Dr Moreau sez..
"Who breaks the law... goes back to the House of Pain!"

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Mudflap
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Re: Last & Best of the Piston Engine Fighter Aircraft.

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I think he intends to focus on the more popular merlins and db600 series but he certainly appreciates anything related to piston engines of the era.

He's quite easy to reach, just look up 'The secret horsepower race' on facebook.
How much TQ does it make though?

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:10 am
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Re: Last & Best of the Piston Engine Fighter Aircraft.

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Mudflap wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:39 pm
I think he intends to focus on the more popular merlins and db600 series but he certainly appreciates anything related to piston engines of the era.

He's quite easy to reach, just look up 'The secret horsepower race' on facebook.
Yeah, I dont do 'faceplant'..

I did see that he's located in Croydon, which took the brunt of the Nazi V1 cruise missile assault in 1944..
Napier Sabre powered Hawker Tempest fighters intercepted & downed 800+ of those, the best effort by a fighter type..
Dr Moreau sez..
"Who breaks the law... goes back to the House of Pain!"

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Re: Last & Best of the Piston Engine Fighter Aircraft.

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Kermit Weeks is.. uniquely restoring his rare Sabre-Tempest Mk V, & alongside his prototype Centaurus-Tempest Mk II..

http://warbirdnews.com/aviation-museum- ... vival.html
Dr Moreau sez..
"Who breaks the law... goes back to the House of Pain!"

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Re: Last & Best of the Piston Engine Fighter Aircraft.

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& here's a topical one for motorsport fans.. Reno racing gold: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvRmZZZEzF8
Dr Moreau sez..
"Who breaks the law... goes back to the House of Pain!"

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Re: Last & Best of the Piston Engine Fighter Aircraft.

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Further to our previous discussion on 'laminar flow' wing profiles, see in the link below, N.A.V. Piercy's claim to have developed just such an advanced low drag design - at the RAF (Royal Aircraft Factory) via NPL, back in 1937.

http://wellssullivan.blogspot.com.au/20 ... ction.html
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Tommy Cookers
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Re: Last & Best of the Piston Engine Fighter Aircraft.

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well I did know that Piercy worked with NPL and was 'Mr British laminar flow aerofoil'
but could not find a drawing of the Piercy before NPL

in your post 20 Aug 17 you seemed to agree with my original point (the Tempest aerofoil wasn't described as LF)
and I take your post today to be consistent with that (ie no WW2 British plane except the Spiteful etc claimed a LF aerofoil)
Piercy conveniently doesn't name the WW2 aircraft that he says flew on LF aerofoils

aerofoils were worse (falling L/D ratio at higher AoA) as design progressed though helpful to designers wrt CoP movement
the Mosquito etc and the Comet killed people this way
this is the leading edge 'bubble' - continuous flow separation and reattachment
the docile Cherokee is 'LF' and unsurprisingly its pitch control seems to deter the pilot trying to develop high AoA
tbf landing flap has rather usefully replaced pilot skills even with light aircraft

though a true symmetrical aerofoil can increase CoL at abnormally high AoA (with very high CoD of course)
this is how a decent aerobatic plane can fly level at 50 deg AoA as long as the oil cooling allows
NOTE TO SELF - the Pitts lower wing is LF 63A015 but the Decathlon is not LF it's 1412

btw regarding the Napier Lion photos elsewhere
a colleague who was a Napier apprentice said they had c.1950 many (Sea ?) Lions - on a maintenance/support contract ?
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

J.A.W.
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Re: Last & Best of the Piston Engine Fighter Aircraft.

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Aye T-C, the Napier Sea Lion was a well-regarded marine engine for fast launches, as a kid I recall seeing one out on
display, & thinking what a solid, well organised unit it is, ( esp' for a British machine, which were usually so 'nuts & bolts').

As for the Tempest 'laminar flow' wing profile, I expect - that at the time of its introduction, this term/descriptor was not
seen as a notable 'sales feature' by Camm/Hawker - however, once Supermarine had taken up the 'Mustang wing' analogue,
for its belated Spitfire successor, the Spiteful - this 'sales feature' type term was indeed being specifically 'touted'.

Some of the Spiteful's poor low-speed handling charateristics (by comparison with the Spitfire) may well stem from
both its marked reduction in wing area, & the adoption of a straight taper planform, over a semi-ellipical shape.

The D-H Hornet & Vampire did, of course, also utilize the RAF/NPL 'laminar flow' wing profile.
Dr Moreau sez..
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J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Re: Last & Best of the Piston Engine Fighter Aircraft.

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Apart from US machines such as the P-51, P-63 & A-26, another WWII era 'laminar flow' wing profile user - is a bit novel..

The Napier-Nuffield-Heston Racer; http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/ ... 00957.html
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Tommy Cookers
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Re: Last & Best of the Piston Engine Fighter Aircraft.

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as laminar flow as a loaf of bread ! - again you haven't properly looked at the material that you post
look at the wing profile in the structural sketches
this was 1938 - the bloody NPL that you have now discovered were officially advising the use of thick wings as on the Typhoon

I'm still waiting for you to post a reference supporting your LF claims re the Tempest (and 'your' other British WW2 aircraft)
(the website you once posted mentions 3 books but I don't think any eg the Munson book and its reprints shows anything)
again - how come those Tempest writers with real knowledge eg Beamont never mentioned Tempest LF ?

you seem to be conflating LF with good behaviour regarding compressibility - these are in principle unrelated characteristics
eg officially LFs ie Spiteful/Attacker and US stuff was inferior to the Spitfire wing in respect of critical Mach no.
as were the 163 and 262 and Vampire wings
and the Mosquito and Hornet can't be called LF
for fast subsonic aircraft LF aerofoils were apparently soon replaced eg by other 'aft-loaded' and 'supercritical' types
the general aviation LF aerofoils seem to have been quickly replaced by NASA with ones not classified as LF ?
Stinton tested 300 aircraft for UK certification and designed and lectured on design seems to have written that .....
NACA 6 series foils having 6 numeric digits are designed for high critical Mach no etc but he doesn't mention LF ....
NACA 6 series foils having 5 numbers and 1 letter digit (the LFs) have an LF 'bucket' but doesn't mention high crit Mach

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Re: Last & Best of the Piston Engine Fighter Aircraft.

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No T-C, 'laminar flow' in WW2 was an 'aspirational' idea, if not a downright 'marketing' term.

& sure, the RAE's advice re 'thick' wing profiles was found to be a folly - when the higher available power
on aircraft such as the Beaufighter & Typhoon - failed to make the expected speed, due to excess drag rise.

Accordingly Camm/Hawker utilized the 'high speed' NPL profile for the Tempest, to good effect, & a profile
that just happens to meet the criteria deemed to be typical of 'laminar flow', ( as did the Heston Racer).

Interestingly, Mitsubishi also utilized a Nippon developed 'laminar flow' type profile for its advanced-aero Raiden.

See below, a link to period British analysis of airframe structure drag/stress factors, courtesy of Neil Stirling;

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/thread ... ysis.42716
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Tommy Cookers
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Re: Last & Best of the Piston Engine Fighter Aircraft.

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the Heston Napier had of course a symmetrical aerofoil unlike those you're claiming as LF


though based on your latest link above you can legitimately claim one thing about the bloody Tempest

the ultimate flight (load) factor tabulated for it is 14 (at 12000 lb AUW) - higher even than the Vengeance and Hellcat
ultimate is the point at which the structure instantly fails - the maximum g for use is nominated at 2/3rds of this

the pilot of another strong Hawker aircraft survived a 250 mph belly-in on the public highway (at Shoreham)
including running through numerous cars parked in an unauthorised area, this causing multiple fatalities