Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

Post anything that doesn't belong in any other forum, including gaming and topics unrelated to motorsport. Site specific discussions should go in the site feedback forum.
User avatar
turbof1
Moderator
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:36 pm
Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

Post

mertol wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:36 pm
https://www.povertyusa.org/facts
Correlation between poverty and crime seems about right if you ignore native Americans. But I am not convinced the reason for poverty is racism. Still they rebel about police bias not poverty.
People in that situation will rebel with any reason. The baseline is still poverty that creates a hate for society. Then one spark in the powder keg is enough, it is police bias now, but a high profile hate crime against a black person could have done the same.

For the record, protesting should never be seen as negative provided it happens peaceful. It is just voicing your opinion en masse. Rioting, that's a different matter. Often times I see the debate focussing way too much on the rioting, while the vast majority were just protesting.

If you fix that disproportionate poverty and put the welfare of an average black person the same as a white person, you'll see those differences in crimes melt away. I don't personally believe the violence against black people will dissapear in the same way, but should diminish as well, and maybe in time (again couple of generations give or take) they do dissapear.

I hope this doesn't turn into a "black people just don't want to get better lifes and do more effort to move up in life", because poverty is a very devilish grip. No money for a decent education means no decent job. If your parents grew up in the same fashion, you are more likely to grow up in a problematic family. If your social network only consists of other poor people, there's little to get a golden break.

In order to fix this problem you'll need radical things. Forced mixing of races in neighbourhoods, proper and longterm investment in poor areas with the intent of creating well paying jobs, free qualitative education for everybody up to university, removal of children out of abusive families,... .
#AeroFrodo

User avatar
Racer X
10
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:04 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

Gothrek wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:55 am
Racer X wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:41 pm
jumpingfish wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:36 pm

I'm not sure the black color can affect to F1 car so much because it doesn't have an air conditioner and speed in F1 is high enough to cool black surfaces by the oncoming airflow
I was about to comment on the "(due to air conditioner use)" which is not at all a factor in an F1 car. Also Renault and Lotus HAAS and other teams have used dark colors in the past and nobody worried about it affecting their performance then.

I wonder if these worries have more to do with Mercedes supporting Black Lives Matter more then a 1.9% increase in carbon dioxide...
It was purely from an engineering point of view. I mention this airco usage in my comment. The reason that the airco has to work more is that things become hotter. So I was really wondering from a physical/engineering point of view if there is any impact. As 1% or 2% is a huge thing in F1. Everything is really packaged very tightly, a small temp increase might impact something, somewhere down the line. So was wondering if there might be some disadvantage.

BLM for me is something purely political and has nothing to do with the actual problems anymore. Also for me not really a topic to discuss here on an F1 forum.
So then purely from an Engineering point of view have you questioned and worried when Lotus, Renault, Haas & other teams have painted their cars black or does the purely Engineering concern/point of view more of a concern if its a BLM livery.
SENNA

User avatar
Phil
430
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:22 pm

Re: Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

Post

turbof1 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:25 pm
That's logic people in North Korea use to not get murdered by their dictator. Nobody should be careful to not provoke a disproportionate reaction.
I'm not sure following orders by the police is similar to the situation in North Korea, though I do get the point you are making. I also get that one would assume appropriate measures, for example; simply running away should not prompt the reaction shoot to kill.

However, the context and where measures are appropriate or not, is a tough call to answer. Are they engaging in someone with a history of violence? Is that person a danger to the officers or others? Could he be carrying a weapon? Why would someone resist arrest in the first place? By not engaging, are they not inadvertently encouraging more people resisting arrests?

I get that one would expect lethal force to almost never be necessary (as happens to be in Europe), but as I said in an earlier post; the fact that in the US guns are legal and a large number of the population has guns kind of changes the situation somewhat. It would make you think twice when engaging people and the threat level assessment would be very different than what a different cop in another country would be expecting. The same reasoning can also be applied to other countries or regions where criminality is much higher. You just don't want to end up provoking the police there. If you do, well, you're just asking for trouble.

And as a matter of fact; Isn't that the reason why Police are more and more ordered to wear body cams at all times? To protect themselves as well as others? And if there is an incident, are they not subject to an (internal) investigation by an independent division?
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

User avatar
Morteza
2302
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:23 pm
Location: Bushehr, Iran

Re: Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

Post

A new shot
Image
"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
656
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

Post

V12-POWER wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:15 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:27 pm
mertol wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:18 pm


Still don't see where race comes into this. And if it was such a big problem surely they could find someone that hasn't threatened a pregnant woman to be the face of the campaign.
Straw man argument. Floyd's other crimes aren't relevant, are they? Or is someone having done wrong in the past sufficient to allow summary killing by police on the street?

This death was the straw that broke the camel's back, caused the dam to break, etc.
Ok so let's stand by your logic. If HItler came back from the dead, and he gets killed by a cop. Would you come back and say "someone having done wrong in the past sufficient to allow summary killing by police on the street" OR "Hitler's other crimes aren't relevant, are they?"

in your eyes, would he (hitler) deserve to be the face of a worldwide campaign?

whatever excuse you come up with has major flaws
Godwin's Law has reared its head already. :lol:

If you wish to go down the road of using fallacious arguments, if you are stopped and fined for speeding next week, is it ok if any police officer in future kills you? After all, you're a criminal.

It must be hard to go through life hating so many people that you've never met.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

ENGINE TUNER
ENGINE TUNER
21
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:07 pm

Re: Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

Post

Phil wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:33 am
mertol wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:01 am
Police are under no obligation to save criminals' lives where do you get that crap? If you are dumb enough to fight the police then don't get upset when you get killed. There isn't even any race involved here.

I was against american gun laws but looking at the riots I get it. I stand corrected.
This. If you resist an arrest and seek confrontation, I really don't see what people would expect. Has absolutely zero to do with skin color, but all to do with common sense. I don't see where this belief comes from that one has the right to resist over someone with authoritative power (e.g. the police) and is armed. That's just asking for trouble.
Yes, people of color should just accept the oppression silently or else the occupying force in our communities have the right to be judge jury and executioner. Since the whites came into the western hemisphere and murdered the natives and shipped in Africans for cheap labor, the decedents of those Africans MUST accept the furthered oppression of whites until the end of time. White supremacy has won and it must stay forever/s

The police in america are the foot soldiers of american white supremacy. They impose racist laws on people who they have no right to think they have authority over. Who gave the police authority over you, me or anyone else? An inner city cop can not go on a native reservation and try to assert authority because he has none because the natives has been given sovereignty, sovereignty is what the black community in america has sought but only received further oppression. Black people have every right to fight oppression in america, it has EVERYTHING to do with skin color.
Last edited by Steven on Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed off-topic BS

Wynters
Wynters
64
Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 1:49 pm

Re: Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

Post

Phil wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:17 pm
I don't know Mertol nor do I know his bias, but IMO he is asking sound questions and applying logical reasoning so far.
He's literally ignoring evidence. Not engaging with it to seek to disprove it. Straight up ignoring it.
mertol wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:46 pm
You didn't read past that one liner either. It doesn't explain what it is disproportionate to. There is no moving of goal posts. The goal always was there is no racial bias.
...
Such good evidence it doesn't even mention what it is disproportionate to.
...
If anything the bias is towards whites.
...
Correlation between poverty and crime seems about right if you ignore native Americans. But I am not convinced the reason for poverty is racism.
Colour me skeptical that 'sound' and 'logical' reasoning involves discarding without review any data or context that disproves his 'argument'.
Phil wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:17 pm
And even if there are cops that do abuse their power and badge and go out and seek "trouble" - are they doing it while being racially motivated or are they simply getting their kicks from exercising power over others?
This is difficult to deduce. Perhaps we could look at which portions of US society seem to disproportionally suffer from this (and similar) abuse over an extended period of time?
Phil wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:17 pm
In other words, if I felt people like me were systematically targeted and shot by the police, perhaps I too would behave differently in such a situation (feeling threatened and my life being at stake). Or maybe it would make me be extra careful, not to provoke and as helpful as I can?
If you are a group in a minority position of power, I'm not sure that's panned out well historically. Which leads us to...
Phil wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:17 pm
Then my last point; If afro-americans truly felt they were targeted systematically (a narrative that is very popular it seems), perhaps is also causing them to resist arrests more often? Or maybe it's also due to the dark history of the USA of slavery that some feel no-one, even a police officer, especially when white, should have power over them?
Resisting arrest does not carry a penalty of summary execution.

To summarise the rest of your points because I feel they tie in here:-
- If other people have committed crimes that share characteristics with the person that I'm confronting, then I'm going to treat them differently.
- If I'm provoked e.g. by someone being argumentative, then I'm going to treat them differently.
- If they resist my wishes in anyway, then I'm going to treat them differently.

I agree that context dictates much about an event. As you point out, it is inherently human to bring preconceptions and experience to an incident and, if both sides bring preconceptions to an incident, then tensions will likely be much higher and the capacity for an unnecessary outcome increases. But no one should be unjustly killed and that person's killers should not benefit from institutional protections.

To be clear, in the specific instance we are discussing, 'treat differently' = kill a defenceless and bound person, surrounded by police, several minutes after the incident, without due process.

I don't think that any of those point you've put forward justify killing someone, not in the heat of the moment and certainly not long after, whilst they are bound and no threat.

I'm feel as if I'm now just repeating myself so, as it seems I have little fresh to add, so whilst I'll keep reading, I'm going to stop replying and let the thread drift back on track.

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
480
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

Post

mertol wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:02 pm
Yea that's not an argument, zealot.

An argument looks like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ ... statistics
Overall, black Americans are arrested at 2.6 times the per-capita rate of all other Americans, and this ratio is even higher for murder (6.3 times) and robbery (8.1 times)
So they are several times more likely to be involved in crimes and still have less fatalities than whites. If anything the bias is towards whites.
Not arguing there. Just research why that is the case.

Ask why at least 5 times and search for the answer each time.

That is the "5 whys" method. The more whys you ask the closer you get the root cause.

If your research is because the DNA of Black people causes them to commit more crime then let the scientific world know please.
Not driving a Mercedes? Work harder!

User avatar
Racer X
10
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:04 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

V12-POWER wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:27 pm
The police officer was wrong? Maybe.
You are trying to undermine the the protests when you try to justify and illegal action.

The Police officer is completely wrong with out a doubt. There is no world where
it is in any way acceptable to execute some one.

You cannot execute anyone with out due process.

Even from a purely legal stand point a jurry needs to determine some one is guilty.
After which point a Judge can deliberate sentencing.

Recently they apprehended the Golden Gate Killer in California this man pleaded guilty to 10+ counts of Muder/Rape of young women.

He pleaded guilty and will spend the rest of his life in jail. The reason he pleaded guilty is because if they went to court and a judge would have been allowed to sentence him. He might have decided he was worthy of the death penalty. It would have been a trial that would have gone on for a minimum of 60 days.

Because there is a whole system in place for a judge to decide weather or not some one is eligible to be executed.

Now Floyd might well have been if he was out with so many crimes to his name.
Attempted murder on a pregnant woman thats pretty serious.
But still not a decision that a Police Officer is allowed to make.

Which is what this is about this is about due process and the systematic pattern that has gone on for decades.
This is not a single event that has sparked this BLM movement.

This is one of many incidents that have gone on for way too long.


The actions of the Police officer are not legal at all.

Even when a judge orders a execution they are not allowed to execute the guilty party in a way that is not in accordance with established norms for execution.
So from a purely legal standpoint the Cops actions are not legal and thats what this is about.
This is about Police reform.

The fact that BLM bothers you shows how much you dont know.
If you do know what youre doing then you are part of those with an agenda that aims to diminish the value of the BLM movement and aims to maintain systems that are aimed at the wide spread and systematic killing of black men.

Its parallel to other groups in history. But i wont go into that because i might not be correct and maybe these are just some bad cops. But until there is Police reform and the Police officers are held accountable then they will continue to execute black men and get away with it. Which is what the issue is about its about due process.

When we remove the race factor its purely about due process and holding Police officers accountable to the law.
SENNA

User avatar
Phil
430
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:22 pm

Re: Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

Post

Wynters

I don't think we disagree on much here. I agree police brutality should be kept in check. I agree police officers who use too much force should be held accountable. I agree the color or race of a person should not make a difference in how that person is approached by the police.

The only thing I am arguing is, that many incidents are overblown in the media or by the public to be racially motivated when there is no proof of that. If we analyze each incident, I am sure we can see that in most cases, resisting an arrest or unnecessary provocation lead to an unfortunate outcome.

I don't mean to step on anyones toes here, but sometimes I feel that people of color are quicker to feel they are being unfairly treated because of their skin color before considering other possibilities. The current narrative in the media and the whole BLM movement is only increasing that perception and thus, increasing a problem that may exist, but not to the degree it's being made out.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

dans79
dans79
251
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

Racer X wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:55 pm
But until there is Police reform and the Police officers are held accountable then they will continue to execute black men and get away with it. Which is what the issue is about its about due process.

When we remove the race factor its purely about due process and holding Police officers accountable to the law.
Who are you claiming isn't being held accountable? I'm not aware of every single illegal police officer action under the sun, but pretty much every one i've heard of in the last decade plus has faced some form of criminal punishment.

for example the office who killed George Floyd is facing 2nd degree murder charges, and the other 3 officers are facing charges of aiding and abetting 2nd degree murder.
164 98 95 7

Jolle
Jolle
204
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

Post

Phil wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:05 pm
Wynters

I don't think we disagree on much here. I agree police brutality should be kept in check. I agree police officers who use too much force should be held accountable. I agree the color or race of a person should not make a difference in how that person is approached by the police.

The only thing I am arguing is, that many incidents are overblown in the media or by the public to be racially motivated when there is no proof of that. If we analyze each incident, I am sure we can see that in most cases, resisting an arrest or unnecessary provocation lead to an unfortunate outcome.

I don't mean to step on anyones toes here, but sometimes I feel that people of color are quicker to feel they are being unfairly treated because of their skin color before considering other possibilities. The current narrative in the media and the whole BLM movement is only increasing that perception and thus, increasing a problem that may exist, but not to the degree it's being made out.
It goes beyond that. If it was just the few filmed incidents on Facebook it would be over and done with in a couple of years with training. But... there is so much more. Take that that police officer can still work with about 17 complaints on his name, the way police unions have the power and no one even in the police force can file a complaint or act on it. The several cases where people of the public are unable to file a complaint. Just the way it was filed that the old man pushed over was filed as “he tripped” and when the police officer who shoved him was held accountable, the whole squad walked out....

There is so much more then just a few incidents. And it’s not just now. And every time the police isn’t held accountable.

Apart of course from all the recorded racist police radio.

It’s the whole system.

Plus. Any system
Where someone like Roy Moore can be in law enforcement, is per definition broken.

User avatar
Racer X
10
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:04 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

dans79 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:19 pm
Racer X wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:55 pm
But until there is Police reform and the Police officers are held accountable then they will continue to execute black men and get away with it. Which is what the issue is about its about due process.

When we remove the race factor its purely about due process and holding Police officers accountable to the law.
Who are you claiming isn't being held accountable? I'm not aware of every single illegal police officer action under the sun, but pretty much every one i've heard of in the last decade plus has faced some form of criminal punishment.

for example the office who killed George Floyd is facing 2nd degree murder charges, and the other 3 officers are facing charges of aiding and abetting 2nd degree murder.

Yes they are as they should be but these protest are about the other laws currently in place. Which create protections for Police Officers to avoid prosecution typically. Its about the bigger picture yes George Floyd's death was a catalyst but this isn't about him anymore. Its about Police Reform because different states have different laws and across the country you see different kinds of protections for police officers. I actually read that it was unfortunate that this started in the City that it did because this Police department has done a lot to reform itself which is evidently clear by the fact that they arrested their own Police Officers and now are holding them accountable. But you have to remember that while at their City they might be holding their Cops accountable this isnt the case other places which is what this is about. Police reform in general so that this becomes what is normal so that in other states when a Police officer crosses that thin blue line they are prosecuted as they should be.
SENNA

ENGINE TUNER
ENGINE TUNER
21
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:07 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

proteus wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:00 am
ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:46 pm
proteus wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:37 pm
Everything is going far too far. The biggest loser in this is an average Joe, which voice is being silenced and sidelined. If someone from BLM or LGTB+-%@$xyz makes up a lie about this average Joe just for giggles, this poor bastard will get torn apart by media and majority of people.
Yeah, average Joe is the biggest loser, not the people who have been oppressed for the last several hundred years /s
Whatever makes you happy my friend. Aparently you dont know exactly what oppresion looks like, or in other words, you condem only the oppression, which fits your agenda. You need to experience unenployment first, then minimal waged job and so on, even with good education. I did experience all of this without being a person of color so dont try to being smart with me. Where were you when i was being exiled? Oh right, i cant have problems because of my skin color...Get out of your bubble and you will see the true color of the world. It aint black or white, its grey.

Sorry for being off topic.
Apparently YOU don't know what oppression looks like. I don't have to try to be smart with you, you a clearly a natural idiot. The true color of the world is white supremacy. Not interested in the rest of your nonsense.

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
480
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Mercedes changes 2020 livery in fight against racism

Post

Phil wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:05 pm
Wynters

I don't think we disagree on much here. I agree police brutality should be kept in check. I agree police officers who use too much force should be held accountable. I agree the color or race of a person should not make a difference in how that person is approached by the police.

The only thing I am arguing is, that many incidents are overblown in the media or by the public to be racially motivated when there is no proof of that. If we analyze each incident, I am sure we can see that in most cases, resisting an arrest or unnecessary provocation lead to an unfortunate outcome.

I don't mean to step on anyones toes here, but sometimes I feel that people of color are quicker to feel they are being unfairly treated because of their skin color before considering other possibilities. The current narrative in the media and the whole BLM movement is only increasing that perception and thus, increasing a problem that may exist, but not to the degree it's being made out.
Some are but only a minority. And they have a fair reasons for feeling that way. Call it post traumatic stress disorder or whatever.

It does happen. Because you are not on the receiving end why you may not understand. In the Engineering world, knowing that when a minority calls for service even after paying fully, their claims are not believed 90% of the time because they are not white, is a very common thing. Measurements are always questioned...Manufacturer flies over from Europe and to go and measure themselves and lo and behold they get the same. Then they fly back to Europe and make a change in the design, then you see the design released as "version 2.0" :lol: Very common theme!
Not driving a Mercedes? Work harder!