## Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
GhostF1
76
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:11 am

### Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Craigy wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:28 pm
ian_s wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:19 pm
Bandit1216 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:00 am

Will surely not even be close. I was calculating a bit with some co workers the other day. Rubber to asphalt
friction coefficient is about 1 according to the net. It might be somewhere near 1.3 with a lot of rubber on the track?? Even if you assume 1,5 coefficient and 1,5 down force to weight ratio on the NSX, which are both high assumptions IMO, they can get to 2,25 G. Not even close to F1.

I think G-force is the one thing quite different on track vs dyno though.
2G would still give better info than the maximum 1G on a dyno
We've been around this discussion before. There are dynoes that can give more than 1G on a gimbal.
What has also been discussed at length is sustained G forces. It is extremely difficult to properly simulate accurate sustained G forces on a dyno, most processes involve heavy use of computer estimations from sim programs to fill in the gaps.
This was talked about at length when Honda discovered issues with their 2017 oil tank design on the track that were not seen on the dyno which was followed by a lengthy discussion about computer simulation and replicating accurate fluid slosh dynamics and the challenges involved with that..

gruntguru
406
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:43 am

### Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Dynos that simulate cornering only tilt the engine so they are simulating not the g forces but the ANGLE resulting from cornering forces. 1g cornering (plus 1g gravity) results in a 45* angle and a magnitude of 1.41g. The tilting dyno can replicate the 45* angle but the magnitude is still 1g (gravity). It probably doesn't matter much - the higher force only affects things like internal stresses, moving parts in the engine and flow involving mixtures with different densities (eg bubbles). The angle matters a lot because pickups that should be submerged can suddenly be sucking air and vice versa. Under 4g cornering the angle of fluid in a reservoir will be about 76* to the horizontal - almost vertical!!!
je suis charlie

GhostF1
76
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:11 am

### Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Just linking another Abiteboul stab that lacks any technical fact. Basically insinuating that because TR finished behind Renault, the Honda PU is obviously worse

https://www.planetf1.com/news/renault-r ... ing-honda/

“Red Bull never tire of telling how good Honda is compared to us.

“May I state that Toro Rosso is still behind us?”

This guy is amazing.

Bandit1216
0
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:55 pm

### Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

GhostF1 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:57 pm
Just linking another Abiteboul stab that lacks any technical fact. Basically insinuating that because TR finished behind Renault, the Honda PU is obviously worse

https://www.planetf1.com/news/renault-r ... ing-honda/

“Red Bull never tire of telling how good Honda is compared to us.

“May I state that Toro Rosso is still behind us?”

This guy is amazing.
He's stupid. RB is 2 secs faster than Williams. So is the renault better than the Merc then? How can you be so stupid and still be in F1.

PlatinumZealot
329
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

### Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Toro rosso is the fastest Honda chassis so he is well within reason!
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

GhostF1
76
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:11 am

### Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:12 pm
Toro rosso is the fastest Honda chassis so he is well within reason!
Vague at best.. He would know that is not even remotely an accurate representation of PU performance. It's just subtle jabs.. he makes a lot of them about rivals unfortunately.

PlatinumZealot
329
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

### Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

It was a little joke.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

Sieper
33
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

### Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

I thought so already (looking at your postings overall) but indeed, on forums humor is quite easily missed. And not only humor, much of everything is usually missed, except for the insults those usually stick (or is it just me)

I can't wait for The Spain wintertests, I am really hoping for a 3 way battle this year, it might be truly possible if the Honda PU really is on the path it seems to be on.

sosic2121
16
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:14 am

### Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

gruntguru wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:35 pm
Under 4g cornering the angle of fluid in a reservoir will be about 76* to the horizontal - almost vertical!!!
AFAIK in Radillon corner cars are doing negativne Gs.

Snorked
43
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:00 pm

### Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

--------------- In

2018, which was the season of the fourth year after returning, Honda I updated the power unit (PU) twice. First is "spec 2" which was introduced to the 7th round of Canada in June, and another one is " spec 3 " which appeared in the 16th round of the Russian Grand Prix in September . Regarding the characteristics of each PU and how to use it, Motoabashi explained as follows.

"First of all, I will explain the specification 1 before updating, this was a conservative (conservative) specification because last year there was a problem with PU quite frequently, a penalty due to PU exchange is not this was "been imposed

in that the battle to compete for" a few tenths, because receive the grid demotion penalty, the is a large very impact for the staff that work in the field. "

" the development side Even so, the speed of development falls by coping with troubles, and while dealing with it, the negative side comes out in another meaning that it can not take the next update so easily. "

" With Toro Rosso since 2018 season As I got together, I did not learn to run as many machines as equipped with Honda's power unit on Toro Rosso's body as much as possible Do not go there was a lot. "

"To that end, even if we closed our eyes a bit to performance, we brought conservative specifications to the pre-season test, so it was better to have higher reliability, and the opening race was almost the same with specifications."

■ " We had to use it while understanding the situation of the power unit. "In the

pre-season test, Toro Rosso Honda succeeded in aging the machine by earning the third mileage out of the 10 teams following Mercedes , Ferrari . In the opening game, although trouble of MGU - H (thermal energy regeneration system) occurred in Pierre - Guthrie 's power unit, there was no serious trouble other than that. Then, we introduced spec 2 to the 7th round Canadian Grand Prix.

"Since specification 1 ran properly, spec 2 was specifications that waved to the power, even though it is said that the current F1 has a fixed amount of fuel inflow, the specification that increased combustion efficiency "

This specification 2 was used up to the 15th round of Singapore GP in September. However, Honmohashi Deputy TD said that it was used differently depending on the race, even with the same spec 2.

"From spec 2, we used it while grasping the situation of the power unit at the site properly, because the new PU has characteristics different from the PU that we used until the end."

"Of course, its characteristics are also grasped by bench tests, but there are parts that you do not know unless you actually mount it on the car body and do not actually run.If you do not properly understand its characteristics, the original performance If you can not pull it out, you could develop into a problem in terms of trust, so we used it while grasping exactly what we do in the field. "

" That is, at first, I did not use it that way so much. I understood that I gradually attacked while understanding the characteristics, I think that I

had finished using the performance that I had at last until about the summer vacation (Hungarian GP). " Hungarian GP has entered the Q2 for the first time this year for the first time this year Toro Rosso Honda. Because Mr. Honjo Vice TD said that the communication was improved in Summary (2), Honda was able to use it considerably in specification 2 even in terms of hardware.

And specs 3 appeared in the free practice of the Russian Grand Prix at the end of September. However, with its specification 3, Honda suffered from oscillation (resonance).

"The vibration to the drive system such as the gearbox will change depending on how the engine emits torque.If there is a part where the combustion of the engine is unstable even a little unstable torque will not be stable Then it will trigger another vibration and this time it will trigger another vibration.I think that the stuffing of that side is a little sweet to use Spec 3 3 "

To respond to this problem Although it took a bit of time, it did not recur after the Mexican GP. In other words, it is not a structural problem of spec 3, but it can be said that there was a problem in how to use according to the characteristics of spec 3. As for coping with this problem, it revealed that "Improvement of oscillation has basically coped with data setting".

■ Honda and Toro Rosso staff who achieved great growth

started "more selfish" at spec 1, jumped up with spec 2, and finished the season with spec 3 in the 4th year Honda. However, what has evolved is not just the hardware called the power unit. Honda staff also grew big, along with these three specs.

PlatinumZealot
329
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

### Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Great story bro!

So the new combustion regimes carry their own torque characteristics and as result vibration characteristics sometimes leading to resonance and these characteristics have to be understood and alleviated with adjusted engine tuning (probably ignition, fuel injection, and VLIM? - ERS?)
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

MarcJ
3
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:32 pm

### Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:55 am
godlameroso wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:04 am
Prechamber or not, flame out would happen somewhere around 1.6, so for gasoline that would be a practical limit....
would conventional ignition allow F1 to run at 1.6 lambda ?
afaik we know Honda has road engines on road fuel that (with PI and preheat) run homogeneously at 2 lambda
and F1 fuel is presumably optimised for combustion qualities

don't people think that TJI-type combustion allows leaner combustion ?
or do they think it is only used for faster initiation of combustion ?

design cooling capacity surely means F1 can sustainably run sub-optimal leanness only with lower MAP than is available
yes I have suggested that briefly running less lean at max fuel rate is intended and used
given that high MAPs/exhaust pressures don't yield greater turbine recovery
Some information I know is correct.

Spark ignition only viable to lambda ~1.4 at best, above that it's about TJI or controlled auto ignition, CAI/HCCI/GDCI. TJI gives optimal TE at 1.85 in tested engines and various RCM rigs, rapid compression machines. Lean limit close to 3 with prechamber scavenging using air, ~2.6 without due some exhaust gas residuals in pre chambers.
Given the McLaren ECU predates TJI in racing and really works best using closed loop control with models, feed forward, computationally efficient hack the map not really needed with today's compute power, works well and optimised. Given they're likely using Kistler piezoelectric pressure sensing in cylinders as a exotic knock/boost sensing first knock could take them out.

Suspect surface volume ratio could have some effect on Lambda lean limit, heat loss to surfaces so the baby 266cc cylinders would be disadvantage here to the typical experience with larger cylinders.

Due to the chemistry needing to happen, SI & TJI both achieve near identical times for 0-5% fuel mass fraction burned, after this burning rate is far faster in TJI.

Hot partially burned chemistry products,radicals,etc, extinguished as they pass through orifices of prechamber is the high ignition energy advantage of TJI the included turbulence enhancement also.

Hope this information helps.

MarcJ
3
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:32 pm

### Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:50 am
Great story bro!

So the new combustion regimes carry their own torque characteristics and as result vibration characteristics sometimes leading to resonance and these characteristics have to be understood and alleviated with adjusted engine tuning (probably ignition, fuel injection, and VLIM? - ERS?)
Pressure rise rate per crank angle with TJI, and more importantly cylinder to cylinder pressure variance, cycle to cycle CoV coefficient of variance which is solved with model controlled not map based power train control as your really controlling two chambers lambda and their interaction.

Possible mechanical solutions to crank torsional vibration, inertial variance due side thrust could be aggressive move to using
Steel pistons to improve kinematic behavior of the crank mechanism and more homogeneous surface temperature, lower crevice volume in top land and reduced blow by other advantages that would be highly advantageous operating in this combustion regime and operation.

PlatinumZealot
329
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

### Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

MarcJ wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:42 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:50 am
Great story bro!

So the new combustion regimes carry their own torque characteristics and as result vibration characteristics sometimes leading to resonance and these characteristics have to be understood and alleviated with adjusted engine tuning (probably ignition, fuel injection, and VLIM? - ERS?)
Pressure rise rate per crank angle with TJI, and more importantly cylinder to cylinder pressure variance, cycle to cycle CoV coefficient of variance which is solved with model controlled not map based power train control as your really controlling two chambers lambda and their interaction.

Possible mechanical solutions to crank torsional vibration, inertial variance due side thrust could be aggressive move to using
Steel pistons to improve kinematic behavior of the crank mechanism and more homogeneous surface temperature, lower crevice volume in top land and reduced blow by other advantages that would be highly advantageous operating in this combustion regime and operation.
But the article states (though not explicitly) that an edit of the engine maps solved the problem.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

dren
226
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:14 pm

### Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

I wonder if it was through ICE mapping or MGUK deployment.
Honda!