Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
saviour stivala
-13
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:46 pm

The maximum quantity of fuel (110 kg) allowed to consume for the race (lights-out-to-flag) have got direct measurements through the ‘FFS’ as well as through the ‘injectors flow’ as well as the ‘eventual’ weighing of the car. Through the ‘FFS’ alone and before the weighing of the car after the race in 2018 US GP a car was caught-out as having used 0.1 kg more fuel than allowed and this was declared/was pin-pointed as having had taken place ‘only’ on the last lap of the race.

gruntguru
438
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:43 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by gruntguru » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:50 pm

jumpingfish wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:18 pm
Video with minisectors comparison Leclerc-Hamilton Q3
https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2019/ ... Dhabi.html
Nice video. My impressions:
1. Ferrari has acceleration and top speed advantage
2. MB advantage under brakes especially low speed
3. MB advantage low speed corners
4. MB better front end grip at low speed (Ferrari slight understeer)

Overall, I think the Ferrari has more power, similar high speed grip (more DF?) and the Benz has more mechanical grip. Would love to hear others analysis of this video.
je suis charlie

Phil
406
User avatar
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:22 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Phil » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:41 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:50 pm
A ‘two sensor’ set-up can also be the aim of ‘shutting-up’ the fuel flow accusers/fuel flow sensor doubters.
If the only way to “shut up” the accusers is by putting a second sensor in place, i think demonstrates the necessity of it.

If there was proof that the rules put forward by the FIA can be convincingly policed with just one sensor, why mandate a second sensor for next year then?

Note: this doesnt mean Ferrari was circumventing that one sensor, but that there is obviously some room there to exploit an advantage that currently isnt policed or can be fully prevented with the current means in place.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

izzy
32
User avatar
Joined: Sun May 26, 2019 9:28 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by izzy » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:32 am

gruntguru wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:50 pm
]Nice video. My impressions:
1. Ferrari has acceleration and top speed advantage
2. MB advantage under brakes especially low speed
3. MB advantage low speed corners
4. MB better front end grip at low speed (Ferrari slight understeer)

Overall, I think the Ferrari has more power, similar high speed grip (more DF?) and the Benz has more mechanical grip. Would love to hear others analysis of this video.
I think the Ferrari is faster in every acceleration and straight line and slower in every corner, that simple!

Has it lost a bit since before the TD's started coming in? A bit, maybe, but also these slow corners just don't work at all with its concept and setup. I wish we knew tyre temperatures between here and Singapore, but I could imagine in Abu Dhabi the fronts cool in the long straights and then only the surface warms up in the tight little corners afterwards, which can be a dead end vicious circle as we know, while the rears are busy overheating

But in any case in my mind for next year all the loopholes have been closed now: oil in coolant, fiddled fuel sensor, whatever. They'll have plenty of load for the tyres and everybody's going to have to drive for it :)

ncx
9
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:11 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ncx » Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:23 am

gruntguru wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:50 pm
jumpingfish wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:18 pm
Video with minisectors comparison Leclerc-Hamilton Q3
https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2019/ ... Dhabi.html
Nice video. My impressions:
1. Ferrari has acceleration and top speed advantage
2. MB advantage under brakes especially low speed
3. MB advantage low speed corners
4. MB better front end grip at low speed (Ferrari slight understeer)

Overall, I think the Ferrari has more power, similar high speed grip (more DF?) and the Benz has more mechanical grip. Would love to hear others analysis of this video.
Unsurprisingly LEC lost quite a bit through the chicane before the hairpin, but gained through the hairpin, with HAM going a bit wider in both entrance and exit, LEC getting closer to the apex nevertheless. Better steering at low speed, maybe because of shorter wheelbase? HAM's mistake? Also, it took a while after the exit before the better acceleration started to show, maybe SF being traction limited for longer or with different K deployment.

SiLo
75
User avatar
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:09 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by SiLo » Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:47 am

What was odd was it was a slow gain on the straight, before it seemed to be a lot stronger initially and then tailed off a bit.
Felipe Baby!

LM10
59
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:07 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by LM10 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:12 pm

SiLo wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:47 am
What was odd was it was a slow gain on the straight, before it seemed to be a lot stronger initially and then tailed off a bit.
If you mean pre-TD with “before” you can watch mini sector comparison of Russian GP and compare both. I don’t really see a difference in terms of acceleration to now.

subcritical71
72
User avatar
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:04 pm
Location: USA-Florida

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:05 pm

Phil wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:41 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:50 pm
A ‘two sensor’ set-up can also be the aim of ‘shutting-up’ the fuel flow accusers/fuel flow sensor doubters.
If the only way to “shut up” the accusers is by putting a second sensor in place, i think demonstrates the necessity of it.

If there was proof that the rules put forward by the FIA can be convincingly policed with just one sensor, why mandate a second sensor for next year then?

Note: this doesnt mean Ferrari was circumventing that one sensor, but that there is obviously some room there to exploit an advantage that currently isnt policed or can be fully prevented with the current means in place.
This was my point also. I don't think I've ever seen something put in place to 'shut up' accusers. The car would be a circus. And that is not to say that anyone has done wrong, it could be the questions RBR asked made 1) the FIA realize they couldn't effectively police whatever it was they asked, 2) it was sufficient enough in advantage that they felt the need to ensure it was not exploited next year.

Sieper
69
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Sieper » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:16 pm

Amus opinion article on the over fuelling (in German):

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ri-benzin/

One and Only
0
User avatar
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:41 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by One and Only » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:21 pm

It's getting better and better every day. It could be that FIA measured fuel amount wrong :lol:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferr ... i/4606599/
"Don't you know there ain't no devil, it's just God when he's drunk." Tom Waits

saviour stivala
-13
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:14 pm

There was and still are lots of stories about FERRARI’s power advantage and those stories involved anything imaginable that have anything to do with the power unit but no one has said any of the lot was or is true. Because there was and is no evidence that it was or is so. A lot of the rumors were rivals trying to work-out how the hell FERRARI got their power advantage. And as long as FERRARI will show any power advantage the situation will remain the same, just contrast that with if any of the other three power units shows a power advantage over FERRARI. FERRARI might have lost some of their time they were taking out of others on the straights but with no effect on their lap-time. It tells me that they’ve loaded some more down-force on and used their power advantage that way.
Last edited by turbof1 on Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: little bit of adjustment in language.

henry
242
User avatar
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:49 pm
Location: England

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by henry » Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:47 pm

One and Only wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:21 pm
It's getting better and better every day. It could be that FIA measured fuel amount wrong :lol:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferr ... i/4606599/
This article says:

Ferrari fuel declaration minus fuel at end equals FFS MEASUREMENT.

FIA measurement minus fuel left is more than the the FFS MEASUREMENT

Surely not. If true there would be very drastic consequences.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

Big Tea
69
User avatar
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Big Tea » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:35 pm

henry wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:47 pm
One and Only wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:21 pm
It's getting better and better every day. It could be that FIA measured fuel amount wrong :lol:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferr ... i/4606599/
This article says:

Ferrari fuel declaration minus fuel at end equals FFS MEASUREMENT.

FIA measurement minus fuel left is more than the the FFS MEASUREMENT

Surely not. If true there would be very drastic consequences.
This is highly unlikely as it would be a huge weight disadvantage to them. Also, would the be room in the tank or any alleged other storage area?
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

henry
242
User avatar
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:49 pm
Location: England

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by henry » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:50 pm

Big Tea wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:35 pm
henry wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:47 pm
One and Only wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:21 pm
It's getting better and better every day. It could be that FIA measured fuel amount wrong :lol:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferr ... i/4606599/
This article says:

Ferrari fuel declaration minus fuel at end equals FFS MEASUREMENT.

FIA measurement minus fuel left is more than the the FFS MEASUREMENT

Surely not. If true there would be very drastic consequences.
This is highly unlikely as it would be a huge weight disadvantage to them. Also, would the be room in the tank or any alleged other storage area?
That’s not the point. The issue is that there is a discrepancy between the FFS measurement and the physical measurement. This would say that the FFS is unreliable. That’s the whole story of this issue. It has nothing to do with the actual quantity of fuel and everything to do with calibrating the FFS.

I don’t believe the article because it would mean that the FFS in car 16 could not be relied on.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

saviour stivala
-13
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:44 pm

According to FIA documents, a number of other fuel checks were carried out on ‘all cars’ afterwards too – these covered meter calibration checksums, instantaneous fuel mass flow, fuel temperature and total fuel mass consumed by ‘all cars’. The FIA confirmed that ‘all cars’ were in conformity of all regulations.