Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Mudflap
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Craigy wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:44 pm
Mudflap wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:10 pm
henry wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:43 pm
I don’t think they would use the H to drive the turbine, wastegates open, until they have sufficient traction to cope with it. If they reach full throttle at 100kph that will be ICE only, they can then progressively add the K with energy from H and ES and then finally open the wastegates to get to peak power maybe 160kW or more above when they first exceed traction limit. This will happen very quickly such is the acceleration rate. I imagine that they fine tune this progression in practise starts.
Yes, there is little point in having wastegates open at less than full engine load.
Perhaps I should have stated "throughout the power limited acceleration phase".

I do wonder how they tune this deployment, because suddenly dumping all the power could cause them to lose traction again.
Above 100km/h the cars already have significant downforce. The extra 120kW all coming in at the same time is unlikely to be the deciding factor on whether or not the rears break traction by that point.

The current crop of F1 cars are likely hitting 100km/h in about 2s, with the faster part of the acceleration coming the faster they are going (because the downforce = more grip the faster the car is moving, until drag defeats power).

Effectively, I think most of the grid will be hitting 100km/h practically before they cross the start line, and as a consequence will be doing their ERS-K bump in a straight line. I doubt it even chirps the tyres.
But if you look at VER's start he was still at part throttle the instant he hit 100 km/h. If the MGUK were to deploy full power at that exact time would it not break traction again ? Not even mentioning whatever boost he'd get from open wastegates..
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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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After rule changes which aimed to lower df to slow down cars, I dont know if they reach same level or better level now.
This is well known video with well known faces in it, we saw them hybrid era too. At this video (around 3:40 -4:20) jenson says they have truction control. after race done narrator says jenson can only release all horses after 150 km/h. Maybe they have more downforce and better tyres now but there is more torq too. I don't think they can go full throttle before same speed today too.


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Craigy
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mudflap wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:07 pm
But if you look at VER's start he was still at part throttle the instant he hit 100 km/h. If the MGUK were to deploy full power at that exact time would it not break traction again ? Not even mentioning whatever boost he'd get from open wastegates..
Those graphics are pretty for sofa viewers but I don't think they are precise in either timing or scale -- if they were, they may as well hand the telemetry to the other teams.

gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mudflap wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:07 pm
Craigy wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:44 pm
Mudflap wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:10 pm


Yes, there is little point in having wastegates open at less than full engine load.
Perhaps I should have stated "throughout the power limited acceleration phase".

I do wonder how they tune this deployment, because suddenly dumping all the power could cause them to lose traction again.
Above 100km/h the cars already have significant downforce. The extra 120kW all coming in at the same time is unlikely to be the deciding factor on whether or not the rears break traction by that point.

The current crop of F1 cars are likely hitting 100km/h in about 2s, with the faster part of the acceleration coming the faster they are going (because the downforce = more grip the faster the car is moving, until drag defeats power).

Effectively, I think most of the grid will be hitting 100km/h practically before they cross the start line, and as a consequence will be doing their ERS-K bump in a straight line. I doubt it even chirps the tyres.
But if you look at VER's start he was still at part throttle the instant he hit 100 km/h. If the MGUK were to deploy full power at that exact time would it not break traction again ? Not even mentioning whatever boost he'd get from open wastegates..
I believe they would still be traction limited to 140 kph or more. (Even 500 kW @ 100 kph equates to about 3 g which is unrealistic).

I believe that the MGUK is possibly used to harvest above 100 kph and part throttle (pedal). As the pedal is increased, firstly the ICE throttles are progressively opened, then at ICE WOT, more pedal will reduce the harvesting. Once harvesting reaches zero, more pedal will produce an increase in MGUK motoring. The whole process must result in a monotonic relationship between pedal input and torque output.

To avoid a step in torque as the speed passes through 100 kph, the ICE throttles would be opened sufficiently to offset the driveline torque loss created by the harvesting. This handover would probably be ramped-up over an interval of a few kph - say from 100 - 105.
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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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gruntguru wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:18 am
Mudflap wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:07 pm
Craigy wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:44 pm

Above 100km/h the cars already have significant downforce. The extra 120kW all coming in at the same time is unlikely to be the deciding factor on whether or not the rears break traction by that point.

The current crop of F1 cars are likely hitting 100km/h in about 2s, with the faster part of the acceleration coming the faster they are going (because the downforce = more grip the faster the car is moving, until drag defeats power).

Effectively, I think most of the grid will be hitting 100km/h practically before they cross the start line, and as a consequence will be doing their ERS-K bump in a straight line. I doubt it even chirps the tyres.
But if you look at VER's start he was still at part throttle the instant he hit 100 km/h. If the MGUK were to deploy full power at that exact time would it not break traction again ? Not even mentioning whatever boost he'd get from open wastegates..
I believe they would still be traction limited to 140 kph or more. (Even 500 kW @ 100 kph equates to about 3 g which is unrealistic).

I believe that the MGUK is possibly used to harvest above 100 kph and part throttle (pedal). As the pedal is increased, firstly the ICE throttles are progressively opened, then at ICE WOT, more pedal will reduce the harvesting. Once harvesting reaches zero, more pedal will produce an increase in MGUK motoring. The whole process must result in a monotonic relationship between pedal input and torque output.

To avoid a step in torque as the speed passes through 100 kph, the ICE throttles would be opened sufficiently to offset the driveline torque loss created by the harvesting. This handover would probably be ramped-up over an interval of a few kph - say from 100 - 105.
Since the MGU-K is technically engine braking how realistic would it be to use the MGU-K as a throttle, wouldn't that give fewer pumping losses? IE instead of merely closing the throttle butterfly can't dragging the engine via MGU-K not do the same thing to an extent? Would such a system be worth it if you could reduce intake throttling?
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gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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That is what they do. The pedal controls the output torque, the control system decides whether to vary the butterflies or the MGUK whenever the pedal changes.
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ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Since Marko mentioned Honda's battery is still behind on Mercedes, I thought bringing this point up might be of some relevance along with the deadlines dates for development freezes.
Red Bull Racing CEO Helmut Marko, however, is looking for the answers from a different angle: “Honda has made progress, but in terms of electrical energy, Mercedes is still the strongest,” he told the German. Sport1. “We have to work on that. Honda has replaced a number of engineers, possibly that caused the sudden problems.”
...
Honda's future in Formula 1 is also far from certain. At the moment Honda will remain in Formula 1 at least until 2021, but as of the new regulations it is not yet clear which engine Red Bull can use. ''That decision will be made at the beginning of October," says the Austrian.
ispano6 wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:29 pm
The focus is on battery development and the challenges of Honda developing their own battery system. Honda continues to develop the battery system and has been working around the Covid restrictions on ensuring team communication for remote employees doesn't hinder battery development. Only a handful of employees are able to physically be in the workplace developing the batteries, and communication technologies and an increased focus on improving English language competency has been key areas during the Covid era.
Wouter wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:49 am
Negoro-san speaking, living in the UK since mid-2016, responsible for the development of the energy storage system (battery) that is part of the F1 hybrid system at HRD-UK, the British race base of Honda F1.

The current Honda power source is basically all developed at HRD-Sakura in Japan, but the only battery development here is at HRD-UK. This is because it is more efficient to do it in Europe, where tests are held, due to restrictions imposed by transport regulations. The assignment imposed on me during my stay in Japan and from the second half of 2016 in the UK was the independence of HRD-UK as a development base for batteries.

HRD-UK's current battery development team consists of a number of expatriates and many local members. When HRD-UK was first launched in 2014, there was only one building, mainly as a base for race members and PU maintenance teams, but in 2016 it was expanded to two. Since I was stationed, I hired staff for battery development / design / testing / assembly / purchase, etc., and gradually expanded the number of people to become an independent development base. Considering that I was the only battery developer in the beginning, I am deeply moved by the fact that we have grown to this size.

After a long period of development, we are very happy to have been able to introduce the first compact and lightweight battery that we produced ourselves.
We have all experienced the joy surrounding that milestone. I'm glad we were able to do our bit for Red Bull by developing a compact and light battery.
From Motorsport
The rules for 2020

Within 2020, there are two possible freeze dates. The first, known as R1-2020, goes from the earliest date between the date of FP1 of the first race of the 2020 championship, or 1 September.

The second freeze deadline, known as Mid-2020, is the earliest date between the date of first practice of the eighth round of the 2020 season, or 15 October.

In essence, key components such as the chassis and gearbox that rarely change anyway are frozen at R1-2020, while some aero, inboard suspension and other parts that are usually more subject to development have more flexibility, face a later freeze.

The list of reasons why certain changes can be made after the freeze dates include minimal changes for safety, reliability or cost reasons, changes for driver comfort, or for the installation of a new driver and those "due to regulation changes, legality fixes or the installation of FIA-mandated components".

However, any change must have no performance or weight improvement and will require FIA approval.

The token system

Teams are allowed to deploy two tokens to modify components after the freeze dates. However, they have to take three steps, within deadlines known as D1, D2 and D3.

D1, D2 and D3 are different in the cases of R1-2020 and Mid-2020 frozen components – for example D1 for the former is five days after the shutdown (which is within the next week), and for the latter it's "the Wednesday following the third competition of 2020, but no later than 1 October 2020".

The FIA makes it clear that teams should be sure they really want to deploy their tokens, as there are no second chances if they change their minds on a development route.

Teams are allowed to revert to the original spec, but those tokens cannot be re-used.
It's clear that a lot hinges on the Oct 1~15 deadline.

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Mudflap
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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gruntguru wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:18 am
I believe they would still be traction limited to 140 kph or more. (Even 500 kW @ 100 kph equates to about 3 g which is unrealistic).
It is possible, however it appears that drivers hit full throttle way before that and just accelerate at full load through the last part of the wheelspin.


gruntguru wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:18 am
I believe that the MGUK is possibly used to harvest above 100 kph and part throttle (pedal). As the pedal is increased, firstly the ICE throttles are progressively opened, then at ICE WOT, more pedal will reduce the harvesting. Once harvesting reaches zero, more pedal will produce an increase in MGUK motoring. The whole process must result in a monotonic relationship between pedal input and torque output.
I somewhat agree. I think the MGUK is used to control any deviations from the total torque target at part load. Transiently, at part load the ICE torque following can be quite poor i.e. it can either over or under-deliver, particularly if the output is controlled by a combination of throttle position and cylinder deactivation. In this case the MGUK would work to compensate by either deploying or harvesting.

But it is also plausible that after 100 km/h the pedal position demands such a high torque (still lower than 100%) that the MGUK is always deploying even if it only produces a tiny output.
Last edited by Mudflap on Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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nzjrs
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mudflap wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:19 am
It is possible, however it appears that drivers hit full throttle way before that and just accelerate at full load through the last part of the wheelspin.
For clarity, do you mean here 'full throttle' = 'full torque demand' (i.e full pedal depression, actual torque mixed however) or 'full throttle' = 'full ICE torque at current RPM'?

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Mudflap
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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nzjrs wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:30 am
Mudflap wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:19 am
It is possible, however it appears that drivers hit full throttle way before that and just accelerate at full load through the last part of the wheelspin.
For clarity, do you mean here 'full throttle' = 'full torque demand' (i.e full pedal depression, actual torque mixed however) or 'full throttle' = 'full ICE torque at current RPM'?
the former
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HPD
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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(After the fall of Max) The team instructed Albon not to raise the temperature of the power unit and to avoid full throttle as much as possible during the formation lap.

https://sportiva.shueisha.co.jp/clm/mot ... ndex_2.php

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mem
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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what is that telling us ? they are choosing powerful map which is necessary to cope with mercs in Max hand but it cause overheat since Max will use it aggressively chasing the mercs , i think they have 2 choices now fat engine covers or detuning the PU either way the only right thing to do is to bounce back in 2021 with stronger PU with some impressive cooling ways.

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Big Tea
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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mem wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:49 pm
what is that telling us ? they are choosing powerful map which is necessary to cope with mercs in Max hand but it cause overheat since Max will use it aggressively chasing the mercs , i think they have 2 choices now fat engine covers or detuning the PU either way the only right thing to do is to bounce back in 2021 with stronger PU with some impressive cooling ways.
I have often wondered about the 'wasted' floor area. Large fin shaped surfaces in moving air. I don't know the difference in weight between carbon fibre and a stiff but conductive alloy, but they seem capable of getting well within the minimum weight, so ballast weight would be low.

I don't mean running fluid through it, just using it as a conductive surface from the hot area inside.
I am very much in favour of filtered water. Preferably passed through a brewery

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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HPD wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:40 pm
(After the fall of Max) The team instructed Albon not to raise the temperature of the power unit and to avoid full throttle as much as possible during the formation lap.

https://sportiva.shueisha.co.jp/clm/mot ... ndex_2.php
This is an old story. Either you are building a car around the power unit, or you are suffering from engine problems. Red Bull is still very compact, but does not make any tangible profit from it. Also I'm not sure if the decision to reduce the turbo was entirely Honda's decision. Red Bull talked a lot about how they and Honda worked to reduce the layout, I immediately remember the period with McLaren, when the erroneous and excessive demands of the McLaren engineers were one of the causes of the disaster.

Revs84
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Honda just posted this vacancy on their Linked Page

https://en.hondaracingf1.com/Careers.html

Coincidence? :lol: