2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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JordanMugen wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:57 am
That would make sense, wouldn't it? The vehicle weight could go up to 850 kg, 900 kg or more to support all the extra batteries needed to support the increased 440 electric hp, and that's no issue, that is the way of the world.
Taller, heavier drivers wouldn't be handicapped that much as well.

mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Zynerji wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:25 pm


Then they can go aero/suspension nuts with the savings.🙄
They're already nuts for those... And the FIA just clamped down on it. As they should have, on track action sucks.

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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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All this kind of feels pointless. They're moving towards electrification anyway. If they use a piston engine it will be a dodo in whatever shape or form.
Maybe they should just go series hybrids de-regulate everything on the power source side and just limit power output. They could go with anything from piston engines through rotary and gas turbines to fuel cells.
It would be interesting for a while, with several drastically different technologies. (unless/until a clear winner arises) It wouldn't help much with costs though. Only in that they could choose whatever they want to. If a team couldn't afford a fancy high tech gas turbine system, they might go for a cheaper rotary or piston engine.
Or, if cost matters that much, just have a homologated gas turbine system and let them develop electric drive and storage.

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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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mzso wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:07 pm
All this kind of feels pointless. They're moving towards electrification anyway. If they use a piston engine it will be a dodo in whatever shape or form.
Maybe they should just go series hybrids de-regulate everything on the power source side and just limit power output. They could go with anything from piston engines through rotary and gas turbines to fuel cells.
It would be interesting for a while, with several drastically different technologies. (unless/until a clear winner arises) It wouldn't help much with costs though. Only in that they could choose whatever they want to. If a team couldn't afford a fancy high tech gas turbine system, they might go for a cheaper rotary or piston engine.
Or, if cost matters that much, just have a homologated gas turbine system and let them develop electric drive and storage.
A MGU-H turbocharger connected to a pulse-jet engine would be a FAB electric generator for electric racecars! And LOUD af!

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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Zynerji wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 10:38 pm
A MGU-H turbocharger connected to a pulse-jet engine would be a FAB electric generator for electric racecars! And LOUD af!
a pulse jet is good for space heating or water boiling ..... but ....
nobody ever used a pulse gas-generator with a turbine ....

some gas turbine 'engines' have used/use free-piston 'gas generators' (rather than the usual compressors and burners)
a free-piston device is far better than a PJ at producing gas for work from (turbine) expansion of that gas

nowadays the turbine can be eliminated and generation done directly ....
ie free-piston devices can be integral with linear electrical generation/motor-generation (Toyota has one)
eg quasi-linear back-to-back free opposed-piston combustion units each also acting as electrical machine 'armatures'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_pist ... _generator
(something like that anyway)

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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:51 am
Zynerji wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 10:38 pm
A MGU-H turbocharger connected to a pulse-jet engine would be a FAB electric generator for electric racecars! And LOUD af!
a pulse jet is good for space heating or water boiling ..... but ....
nobody ever used a pulse gas-generator with a turbine ....

some gas turbine 'engines' have used/use free-piston 'gas generators' (rather than the usual compressors and burners)
a free-piston device is far better than a PJ at producing gas for work from (turbine) expansion of that gas

nowadays the turbine can be eliminated and generation done directly ....
ie free-piston devices can be integral with linear electrical generation/motor-generation (Toyota has one)
eg quasi-linear back-to-back free opposed-piston combustion units each also acting as electrical machine 'armatures'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_pist ... _generator
(something like that anyway)
Thats the F1 spirit. Development! Fancy technology! Things out of the box!
I miss it so much!

mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:51 am
some gas turbine 'engines' have used/use free-piston 'gas generators' (rather than the usual compressors and burners)
a free-piston device is far better than a PJ at producing gas for work from (turbine) expansion of that gas

nowadays the turbine can be eliminated and generation done directly ....
ie free-piston devices can be integral with linear electrical generation/motor-generation (Toyota has one)
eg quasi-linear back-to-back free opposed-piston combustion units each also acting as electrical machine 'armatures'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_pist ... _generator
(something like that anyway)
And how is that better than having the motor on a gas turbine's shaft? Which produces energy continuously at an ideal speed, rather than cyclically with high vibration and dead points with zero speed? (Or even rotary engines)

(You provided a dead link)

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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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mzso wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:30 am
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:51 am
some gas turbine 'engines' have used/use free-piston 'gas generators' (rather than the usual compressors and burners)
a free-piston device is far better than a PJ at producing gas for work from (turbine) expansion of that gas
nowadays the turbine can be eliminated and generation done directly ....
ie free-piston devices can be integral with linear electrical generation/motor-generation (Toyota has one)
eg quasi-linear back-to-back free opposed-piston combustion units each also acting as electrical machine 'armatures'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_pist ... _generator
(something like that anyway)
And how is that better than having the motor on a gas turbine's shaft? Which produces energy continuously at an ideal speed, rather than cyclically with high vibration and dead points with zero speed? (Or even rotary engines)
otoh (I haven't read eg the Toyota stuff - and I've got a headache) ....

it has more efficient compression and expansion than other single-stage rotary compressors or expanders
it's cheaper and simpler
it's more road-relevant and more race-traditional

and ....
what vibration ?
why do people think F1-size gas turbines etc are efficient ?
the net is full of pukka information on why small gas turbines are inherently inefficient

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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Also bear in mind that many times stationary gas turbine thermal efficiency is quoted for CHP cycle and appears to approach 60% which is often very misleading - reciprocating engine CHP efficiencies are often quoted to be in excess of 80%.

To make matters even worse turbofan thermal efficiencies (~60%) are quoted at cruise power settings where the output can be as little as a fifth of the rated power. A good turboprop will only achieve about 40% thermal efficiency at cruise.
nah pop no style

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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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mzso wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:30 am
.....And how is that better than having the motor on a gas turbine's shaft? Which produces energy continuously at an ideal speed, rather than cyclically with high vibration and dead points with zero speed? (Or even rotary engines)
well ......
(regardless of prime mover type) many advocate .......

wholly-electric drive ..... combined with much more braking regen ....
so a MUCH higher peak power than the present 160 hp MGUK - ie about 1000 peak hp

but they expect this 1000 peak hp system to have a fixed relationship with the wheels (ie no 8 speed gearbox)
the cars leaving the grid or slow corners pulling 'one gear' over a 0 - 222 mph range and starting regen at 222 mph !!

that is inherently far from ideal on the electrical side
(the present 8 speed gearbox is a big help in keeping the electrical side closer to the ideal)


btw otoh and fwiw
turbofans that are c.60% efficient in cruise are 'on-design' .....
cruising at high speed and high altitude ie thin cold air and plenty of ram compression ..... and ....
huge - and have active control of blade lengths to keep clearances near zero
but 60% sounds like supersonic cruise aka 'supercruise' (Concorde or F-22 style - somewhat supersonic without reheat)
and there's thermal/thermodynamic efficiency, this factored by inertial efficiency ie propulsive efficiency
turboprops factoring for propulsive efficiency is clearer
gas turbine propulsive efficiency factoring is done by a gearbox

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Big Tea
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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seems there is another 'wonder cell' throwing its hat in the ring, The Aluminium Cassette.
Claims of 3, 000 km range for the weight of a Tesla 3 pack. (Not my claim, honest 1200 wk/kg)




We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So watch your feet.

mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Big Tea wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:25 pm
seems there is another 'wonder cell' throwing its hat in the ring, The Aluminium Cassette.
Claims of 3, 000 km range for the weight of a Tesla 3 pack. (Not my claim, honest 1200 wk/kg)




Aluminium-air stuff are primary batteries though. Though I guess it would work, but not feasible in real life, F1 wouldn't adapt something like that.

NL_Fer
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Come on guys, which manufacturer would be interested in a gasturbine series hybrid propulsion?

Volvo tried it in 1992, but is seems the most consumer car manufacturers just are extracting the last % of efficiency out of the current direct injection 4 stroke gasoline engine.

Image

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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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JordanMugen wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:57 am
Mudflap wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:59 pm
It is exactly why in on of my earlier posts I speculated that they will just go for the inline 3 and almost entirely reuse one of the existing engine banks. I think spec combustion chamber may be a bit extreme.
Why inline-three and not V4? :?: Wouldn't the 1.05L V4 be better suited to the forming the rear-end structure of the vehicle?

Current:
1.6 L V6 turbo ~840bhp
ERS system ~160 bhp
---
Total ~1000bhp

2025 unit:
1.05L V4 turbo ~560bhp
ERS system ~440 bhp
---
Total ~1000bhp

That would make sense, wouldn't it? The vehicle weight could go up to 850 kg, 900 kg or more to support all the extra batteries needed to support the increased 440 electric hp, and that's no issue, that is the way of the world.

~560HP V4 + 440HP ERS system? I think you just piqued Porsche's interest in F1 again. Sounds exactly like their 919LMP/919 Tribute powertrain . Love it.

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/motorsp ... 12724.html

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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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mzso wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:48 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:25 pm
seems there is another 'wonder cell' throwing its hat in the ring, The Aluminium Cassette.
Claims of 3, 000 km range for the weight of a Tesla 3 pack. (Not my claim, honest 1200 wk/kg)




Aluminium-air stuff are primary batteries though. Though I guess it would work, but not feasible in real life, F1 wouldn't adapt something like that.
I was concerned with the weight as much as anything. If the weight is comparable with an engine and cooling system and fuel, and as it said in the article it can be swapped in 90 seconds for a large unit, it is getting close to supplying the same power as a top ICE. As long as it can supply the required power, while meeting the weight, it needs looking at as an alternative to even synthetic fuel if there can be some balance formula to allow it to compete in the same race, then see what development does from there.
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So watch your feet.