2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
mzso
60
Joined: 05 Apr 2014, 14:52

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

NL_Fer wrote:
23 Feb 2021, 19:52
Come on guys, which manufacturer would be interested in a gasturbine series hybrid propulsion?

Volvo tried it in 1992, but is seems the most consumer car manufacturers just are extracting the last % of efficiency out of the current direct injection 4 stroke gasoline engine.
Their interest would be in the electric drive-train. It's a simple case of batteries being inadequate for F1.
Though I never said it should be gas turbines only, it may be interesting in niches outside road cars, where weight and volume matters a lot.

User avatar
FW17
168
Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 10:56

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Thy could continue using the ICE engine, but decoupling it completely from the wheels.

That should make it cleaner than any gas turbine power generation plant.

mzso
60
Joined: 05 Apr 2014, 14:52

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

FW17 wrote:
24 Feb 2021, 14:05
Thy could continue using the ICE engine, but decoupling it completely from the wheels.

That should make it cleaner than any gas turbine power generation plant.
A gas turbine is an ICE...
Also tends to be more efficient, and better suited for power generation.

User avatar
FW17
168
Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 10:56

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

mzso wrote:
24 Feb 2021, 20:00
FW17 wrote:
24 Feb 2021, 14:05
Thy could continue using the ICE engine, but decoupling it completely from the wheels.

That should make it cleaner than any gas turbine power generation plant.
A gas turbine is an ICE...
Also tends to be more efficient, and better suited for power generation.
Max an Gas Turbine does in combine cycle is 65%.

ICE is at 50%, but they have advantage of size

User avatar
Blackout
1563
Joined: 09 Feb 2010, 04:12

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Mudflap wrote:
17 Feb 2021, 17:31
Blackout wrote:
17 Feb 2021, 16:48
Thanks. Are they concidering high methanol fuels too? (an ethanol-methanol-gasoline mix)
No idea what the new fuels are but I was under the impression they have given details in media.
Can't find it for the life of me.
"The FIA has distributed the first samples of sustainably produced fuel to the four engine manufacturers. Engine boss Gilles Simon tells us what type of fuel it is, what he expects from it and why it will still take until 2025 for Formula 1 to be 100 per cent CO2 neutral. Michael Schmidt 23.02.2021

The FIA has developed a sustainable fuel for testing purposes. Why?
Simon: We developed a prototype because we wanted to find out for ourselves what different technologies are on the market and how they are available. Concepts are one thing. But if you then ask if you can have 1,000 litres of it, all of a sudden they say: you can have the fuel in two years. It turns out that there are different ways. The prototype we have developed is certainly not perfect yet, but it meets the physical requirements for a Formula 1 engine. The engines run with it. The first goal was to make it available early at reasonable prices.

There are several types of sustainable fuels. Which path did you choose?
Simon: The processes for developing different fuels are known. Question marks exist in their use. The classic e-fuels, which are produced in the laboratory from hydrogen and carbon dioxide, are unfortunately not yet available in sufficient quantities. Moreover, this fuel is not yet suitable for applications in motor sports. This is due to the low octane index. 95 octane is already a challenge. Not to mention 102 or 104 octane, which we need. Then there are the synthetic diesel fuels or fuel for aircraft engines. These so-called HVO fuels come from hydrogenated vegetable oil. That will be the basis for our truck racing series in the future. Some of it is already in the diesel fuel. But our goal is 100 per cent HVO fuels. A lot can be learned from the production process for fuels that ignite at low temperatures and have better properties than pure e-fuels. But that makes no sense from an economic point of view. Companies like Nesté or Total, which already produce this fuel, concentrate fully on diesel fuel. Petrol can also be derived from the production process as a by-product. But that would take too long. We don't have that time. Our product consists of three elements: Biological waste is the basis. From this we get sustainable hydrocarbons. Then we add 20 per cent ethanol, also produced from agricultural waste. To improve the quality of the petrol, we need special toluenes, which are also created from waste again. This is a fairly new, freshly patented process that we have refined to achieve the physical components for Formula 1 petrol. We were helped by a start-up company that specialises in these processes with complex molecules. Our fuel has an octane number similar to the one we use in Formula 1. So between 102 and 104 octane.

Formerly at Ferrari, now in the service of the FIA: engine expert Gilles Simon must ensure that the next F1 power unit for 2025 is a success.

Every manufacturer has been given this fuel. In what quantity?
Simon: 200 litres for each.

Do the manufacturers have to modify their engines to run on this fuel?

Simon: Our agreement with the manufacturers looks like this: We define the physical parameters for the fuel with which the current engines can run. They run on their test benches with their standard settings. This way we learn better about the differences between our fuel and the petrol they use otherwise. Differences in terms of combustion speed, knock resistance, power, consumption. Of course, we cannot expect the first specification of our prototype to produce the same performance data as the fuels that have been developed over years and improved every three months. We will collect the data from all four manufacturers, analyse it and come to conclusions for the next step. I think we are well on track.

What happens then?
Simon: For us, it's about learning more about these fuels so that we can later set the parameters for future fuels and write regulations with comprehensible data. We have no intention of producing fuel ourselves. In cooperation with the manufacturers, we are approaching the solution in a pragmatic way. Of course, the exchange of data is delicate because they are competitors. Nevertheless, I believe that a technical community is forming that will drive the issue forward. Everything is based on scientific data and facts without politics.

When do you expect the first results?
Simon: It will take another month. We want to wait for the results of all four manufacturers. Also from Honda. The road to Japan and back always takes a bit more time.

One problem with developing CO2-neutral fuels is producing them in sufficient quantities.
What will come out of it?

Simon: Every Formula 1 engine can run on this fuel without the engine flying apart. That is already an achievement. I expect some loss of power because the engines have not been adapted for this fuel. Instead, they have been virtually tailor-made for the conventional fuel for the last seven years. How much less power they will notice is hard to predict. It will be less. After all, we are not a fuel manufacturer. We still have time until 2025 to adapt the fuel and the engines to each other.

Would it be so bad for Formula 1 if, with 1,000 hp of system power, there were suddenly 20 or 30 hp missing?
Simon: I don't think that would be bad. Formula 1 cars would still be fast. A more important issue is stability. The engines are all run at a hair's breadth from the knock limit. A little over that and you destroy everything. We have to see that we put together a reliable package. That's why it will take a few more years to use this fuel in Formula 1. Then there is also the quantity problem. 1,000 litres can be produced quickly. A million is more difficult. At the moment, a lot is happening in the production of components for e-fuels. But it will take some time.

The FIA is open to different technologies. Have you already been approached from outside?
Simon: We are discussing this with the fuel manufacturers. Not only for Formula 1. The plan is to convert all FIA championships to sustainable fuels. Maybe it can even be done faster in other categories. For example, where there is only one fuel supplier. You can find a solution faster there. There, the engine people have to adapt to the petrol. Our petrol companies in Formula 1 are currently researching in different directions. We will compile all this and then define in writing what is acceptable and what is not. We are in a learning process right now.

The teams and their petrol partners have adapted the conventional fuel perfectly to the engines over the years. The introduction of e-fuels is a whole new learning process.

Originally, 100 per cent synthetic fuel was supposed to come as early as 2023. Now they want to wait for the new engine format for 2025. Won't that be wasting two years?
Simon: I wouldn't say that. We have two options. Either wait until 2025 or bring the fuel as early as 2023 and the new engine two years later. The second way costs money. Because the manufacturers have to do the work twice. With the current engines, this adaptation will be much more complex than with the engines we have in mind from 2025. Today's engines are so special that they make very special demands on a fuel. The fuels are therefore extremely efficient with a very high energy density. With the new engines, we will move in a direction that is also based on the technology of the future for fuel development.

Aren't you afraid that politicians will create facts and stiffen their stance on fully electric drives instead of relying on a second pillar with e-fuels?

Simon: This is not a technical question. That's why my personal opinion: compared to racing, politics is rather sluggish. If we are able to demonstrate through our research that we are making progress in the field of sustainable fuels, then politics cannot ignore that. From our point of view, it is important that we explain together with the oil companies what we are doing and what steps are being taken and why. The sooner the better. But I wouldn't be too nervous yet. We still have the possibility to introduce sustainable products earlier in other racing series with less demanding requirements.

What will the future Formula 1 engine have to look like to be compatible with this fuel?
Simon: The future Formula 1 power unit must run on sustainable fuel, must use less fuel, emit fewer pollutants and contribute a higher proportion of electrical power. That's why we are working in a second project on how lean we can drive at full load. In a road car, they rarely move in the full-load range. Consumption is mainly defined in the partial load range. That's why road engines are designed to be very efficient at partial load. To realise the same at full load is very difficult. That is our task. We believe that we can increase the efficiency of the drive by another ten percent. For that, we need a fuel that is less dependent on the octane number. We are currently in the research phase on how we need to define the future engine in order to achieve the goals we have set. Soon we will exchange this information with all manufacturers and then start to knit a set of regulations around it."

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... interview/
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
I read some methanol-etahnol-gasoline mxitures can achieve good octane + low emission numbers, but I dunno if F1 engines can produce enough power with such fuels, while maintaining low emissions.

mzso
60
Joined: 05 Apr 2014, 14:52

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

FW17 wrote:
25 Feb 2021, 10:02
mzso wrote:
24 Feb 2021, 20:00
FW17 wrote:
24 Feb 2021, 14:05
Thy could continue using the ICE engine, but decoupling it completely from the wheels.

That should make it cleaner than any gas turbine power generation plant.
A gas turbine is an ICE...
Also tends to be more efficient, and better suited for power generation.
Max an Gas Turbine does in combine cycle is 65%.

ICE is at 50%, but they have advantage of size
Petrol engines are like 20%. (Would be slightly more with diesel).
If you think about Mercedes' 50% value, that's because of recovery, as such electric motors.

User avatar
Big Tea
99
Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 20:57

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

I know nothing of producing these fuels from 'agricultural waste' but what I find with googling seems to say it is produced from what is usually ploughed back into the land as biomass. Is this a good way to go ? as assumedly what is then 'missing' from farmland has to be replaced with chemicals?

Not against it, but the buzz word is 'sustainable'. Additives instead of feedstock is not really sustainable



Edit for clarity. What I mean is are we going down a blind hole and in a few years this will become an issue and another fuel will need to be developed and used. Better to start off with something that can be long term
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

mzso
60
Joined: 05 Apr 2014, 14:52

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Big Tea wrote:
25 Feb 2021, 15:02
I know nothing of producing these fuels from 'agricultural waste' but what I find with googling seems to say it is produced from what is usually ploughed back into the land as biomass. Is this a good way to go ? as assumedly what is then 'missing' from farmland has to be replaced with chemicals?

Not against it, but the buzz word is 'sustainable'. Additives instead of feedstock is not really sustainable



Edit for clarity. What I mean is are we going down a blind hole and in a few years this will become an issue and another fuel will need to be developed and used. Better to start off with something that can be long term
Since plants get their energy from the sun, removing energy from the waste shouldn't be an issue. I expect whatever remains after producing bio fuel still goes back into the soil for nutrients.

Jolle
132
Joined: 29 Jan 2014, 22:58
Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

With biofuel you tackle the CO2 problem but the NO issue remains. This is why it's only half a solution.

Tommy Cookers
620
Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Jolle wrote:
25 Feb 2021, 18:11
With biofuel you tackle the CO2 problem but the NO issue remains. This is why it's only half a solution.
what NO issue ?

the atmosphere and much of the biosphere are made from N and O - that's NO waiting to happen or ex-NO now retired
this is the result of a billions years of natural activity before humans came along
without it they wouldn't exist

Jolle
132
Joined: 29 Jan 2014, 22:58
Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Tommy Cookers wrote:
25 Feb 2021, 18:49
Jolle wrote:
25 Feb 2021, 18:11
With biofuel you tackle the CO2 problem but the NO issue remains. This is why it's only half a solution.
what NO issue ?

the atmosphere and much of the biosphere are made from N and O - that's NO waiting to happen or ex-NO now retired
this is the result of a billions years of natural activity before humans came along
without it they wouldn't exist
NOx only bonds at combustions, especially at high temperatures and play a big part in climate change.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOx

this is the biggest reason biofuel isn't widely adopted as a alternative for gasoline and the future is EV coming from solar, wind and hydro power.

User avatar
henry
324
Joined: 23 Feb 2004, 20:49
Location: England

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

mzso wrote:
25 Feb 2021, 14:32
FW17 wrote:
25 Feb 2021, 10:02
mzso wrote:
24 Feb 2021, 20:00

A gas turbine is an ICE...
Also tends to be more efficient, and better suited for power generation.
Max an Gas Turbine does in combine cycle is 65%.

ICE is at 50%, but they have advantage of size
Petrol engines are like 20%. (Would be slightly more with diesel).
If you think about Mercedes' 50% value, that's because of recovery, as such electric motors.
If, as is claimed, they are making 1000hp(750kW) peak with 120kW from recovery then the ICE is making 630kW and that’s about 50%.

I think your 20% is a bit low for max power outputs but not unreasonable when thinking of part throttle.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

mzso
60
Joined: 05 Apr 2014, 14:52

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Jolle wrote:
25 Feb 2021, 18:59

this is the biggest reason biofuel isn't widely adopted as a alternative for gasoline and the future is EV coming from solar, wind and hydro power.
I think it's because it's not competitive economically...
Solar and wind is just wishful thinking. Won't have much relevance for the foreseeable future. Nuclear is opressed by green-nuts, instead of promoting it, as they should. So we'll probably be burning more coal, gas, and perhaps oil.

User avatar
Stu
Moderator
Joined: 02 Nov 2019, 10:05
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

mzso wrote:
25 Feb 2021, 19:52
Jolle wrote:
25 Feb 2021, 18:59

this is the biggest reason biofuel isn't widely adopted as a alternative for gasoline and the future is EV coming from solar, wind and hydro power.
I think it's because it's not competitive economically...
Solar and wind is just wishful thinking. Won't have much relevance for the foreseeable future. Nuclear is opressed by green-nuts, instead of promoting it, as they should. So we'll probably be burning more coal, gas, and perhaps oil.
Nuclear is a multi-hundred year’kick-the-problem-down-the-road” problem. Really not the answer unless by some miracle we discover how to do nuclear fusion and create a new sun....
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

User avatar
nzjrs
60
Joined: 07 Jan 2015, 11:21
Location: Redacted

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Stu wrote:
25 Feb 2021, 21:21
mzso wrote:
25 Feb 2021, 19:52
Jolle wrote:
25 Feb 2021, 18:59

this is the biggest reason biofuel isn't widely adopted as a alternative for gasoline and the future is EV coming from solar, wind and hydro power.
I think it's because it's not competitive economically...
Solar and wind is just wishful thinking. Won't have much relevance for the foreseeable future. Nuclear is opressed by green-nuts, instead of promoting it, as they should. So we'll probably be burning more coal, gas, and perhaps oil.
Nuclear is a multi-hundred year’kick-the-problem-down-the-road” problem. Really not the answer unless by some miracle we discover how to do nuclear fusion and create a new sun....
I'd take a couple of hundred years of problem free energy production!!! That literally would the best thing to happen to modern civilization since its inception.

Post Reply