There are two options which in reality will not be used IMO. You can have a clutch which disengages the MGU-H from the turbo shaft. And you can have a waste gate that takes some flow off the turbine and bypasses it into the exhaust.Andres125sx wrote:A basic explanation of the system will aid the thread.
Does the turbine spin continuously? Or there´s a by-pass?
I disagree I would guess its a multiphase DC motor.WhiteBlue wrote: The basic layout will be an AC motor/generator with permanent magnets that will be controlled by an AC/DC inverter that can work in each direction. The primary sensoric control will be a rotary encoder that tells the control electronics exactly the position of the magnets with regard to the position of the coils. This enables the induction control for motor or generator mode.
And what you are going to use as the generator? AC servo machines with bi directional inverters (using IGBTs) can function as motor and generator. Those are commonly used in robotics, elevator direct drives and automotive applications. In all these applications kinetic energy needs to be regenerated and the motors therefore need to also work as generators.flynfrog wrote:I disagree I would guess its a multiphase DC motor.WhiteBlue wrote: The basic layout will be an AC motor/generator with permanent magnets that will be controlled by an AC/DC inverter that can work in each direction. The primary sensoric control will be a rotary encoder that tells the control electronics exactly the position of the magnets with regard to the position of the coils. This enables the induction control for motor or generator mode.
I would think an AC motor could be physically smaller.dren wrote:The Honda used an AC motor, as does the Tesla roadster. What benefits does the DC have over AC? The Honda motor was quite efficient.
Those systems use tiny power levels compared to F1. Weight and electric efficiency of the machine in Solar EV is of relatively low priority compared to aero efficiency and chassis weight. Electric machines in F1 use typically 100 times the power of a solar EV. If I'm not mistaken electric efficiency of small brushless DC machines is 80% compared to 98% of big AC machines.flynfrog wrote:A DC motor can also act as a generator. And wont require the AC to DC conversion twice. Ultra effeceient Solar EVs all use DC motors and have regenerative braking.
I also consider that we have a misunderstanding. By AC I'm always referring to the type of current the machine is using not to the power supply. The AC machines we are speaking off in F1 all use DC power supply but AC in the machine. Hence the need to use an inverter.Wikipedia wrote:Brushless DC electric motor (BLDC motors, BL motors) also known as electronically commutated motors (ECMs, EC motors) are synchronous motors that are powered by a DC electric source via an integrated inverter/switching power supply, which produces an AC electric signal to drive the motor. In this context, AC, alternating current, does not imply a sinusoidal waveform, but rather a bi-directional current with no restriction on waveform.
The bolded sentence could indicate that we are talking about the same thing here. We may be using different definitions in the US and EU.A Brushless AC electric motor is an electric motor driven by an AC electrical input, which lacks any form of commutator or slip ring. Generally the term 'brushless AC motor' will refer to a permanent-magnet synchronous motor (PMSM) or permanent-magnet motor (PMM), a synchronous motor which uses permanent magnets rather than windings in the rotor. PMSMs are either axial flux, radial flux, transverse flux, or flux switching depending on the arrangement of components, with each topology having different tradeoffs among efficiency, size, weight, and operating speed.
Alternative designs may use reluctance rather than magnets. Asynchronous induction motors are also brushless AC motors.
The brushless DC motor is a brushless AC motor with integrated inverter and rectifier, sensor, and inverter control electronics.
Running in the pit lane the engine will be at low rpm and/or at idle. The MGUH will not be connected, as you say, but not because it isn't allowed to store energy in the pit lane. At those engine speeds the turbine is unlikely to be making power in excess of that required for the compressor. Having the MGUH would just be a drag on the turbine. No waste gate would be required in that situation.ringo wrote:Why the clutch or waste gate will be necessary is that the energy stored is not allowed to be charged in the pit lane.
If your engine is running or you are acceleration out of the pit lane, you will need to disconnect the generator from the turbine shaft. Or you may also consider opening up a waste gate.
The point is quite valid. Heat will be a significant problem to deal with in 2014. Having the MGUH ahead of the compressor, as in the Renault's layout, makes sense from a cooling and packaging standpoint.ringo wrote:As for the encoders, i see a potential issue with the temperature. Encoders are usually axially located. If the motor is between the turbine that will pose an issue.
Due to this concern i feel that Renault's solution is very smart. Keep the generator out of the high temperature area by the turbine. They have the generator ahead of the compressor, and it's quite likely that the encoder is on the opposite end of the compressor; even further from the heat of the turbine.
The motors may be 3 phase for sure, very similar to the KERS motor in fact.