Mandatory Damage Warning

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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turbof1
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Re: Mandatory Damage Warning

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Shrieker wrote:Warning in advance would be better yes, but I can't really see how such a system could be homologated since every team designs and manufactures parts of their own. Not to mention the amount of r&d it would take to make such a system work reliably. It is the way to go for the future though.
Yes of course it's a difficult solution. And bodywork isn't infinitely rigid; such a system would need to be able to make the difference between bending and cracking. I also don't believe such a thing can be homologated, especially not since teams change a lot of parts from race to race. Something else needs be put in place as a way to test and make sure such a system works.
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Sebp
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Re: Mandatory Damage Warning

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rjsa wrote:An then there is the fact that drivers won't stop no matter what.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SmrV-FFC1w
Reckless, crazy, insane skill. Thx for digging that out!
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RZS10
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Re: Mandatory Damage Warning

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turbof1 wrote:
Shrieker wrote:Warning in advance would be better yes, but I can't really see how such a system could be homologated since every team designs and manufactures parts of their own. Not to mention the amount of r&d it would take to make such a system work reliably. It is the way to go for the future though.
Yes of course it's a difficult solution. And bodywork isn't infinitely rigid; such a system would need to be able to make the difference between bending and cracking. I also don't believe such a thing can be homologated, especially not since teams change a lot of parts from race to race. Something else needs be put in place as a way to test and make sure such a system works.
A very thin wire running through the pylons (down through one up through the other) that would snap should the frontwing fail would be sufficient for example, i don't think that would be that hard to implement, but i guess teams have sufficient data/telemetry/visual clues to know that some parts are broken.

xxChrisxx
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Re: Mandatory Damage Warning

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Shrieker wrote:First of all, if a similar topic have been started before, apologies. I did a quick googling and it seems like this subject wasn't discussed before.

Hamilton's test day 1 crash got me thinking on this once more. I've had this thought pop in my head time and again, having played Geoff Crammond's GP series all those years ago. Simply, you had a graphical representation in the cockpit warning you of any damage received. If you lost your front/rear wing or had a puncture, you could see it in the display right away.

What if the FIA mandated a damage warning system similar to what was in the game ? We already know teams run wires through front wings for aero purposes for example. You could run similar wiring through the rear wing as well. Teams monitor tire data all the time, so displaying a tire failure/explosion instantly in the cockpit shouldn't be much of a problem. Additionally, wiring could be run through the suspension arms so the driver could make the distinction between a tire/suspension failure (if that would be of any help to the driver). They already have cables to prevent wheels from detaching in a crash, so there's another thought. Bib/stay is another vulnerable yet very important part for cornering (remember Hamilton sailing straight in Melbourne practice last year ?) Such a system could be implemented cheaply, but with a high potential to prevent nasty crashes.
Why on earth would you need this? You can feel a failure like a broken wing or a puncture, and mostly when something important catastrophically fails you don't get enough warning to react, so you are a passenger anyway. For a slow failure, like the diff overheating or something, the telemetry will will the pit wall, and the pit wall will tell the driver.

The reason they have to put visual warnings on comuter games is that you have no tactile feedback.

It's like saying that you need a visual warning to know that the wheel has fallen off your road car. Or you need a 'heath bar' to tell if you are losing a fight.

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Shrieker
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Re: Mandatory Damage Warning

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Thank you for your feedback. I thought I made it clear that it was for the odd occasion like for example when the driver loses half a wing and can't really make sure what's wrong and turns into a corner and ends up in the barriers before the team have a chance to tell him the extent of the damage.

Anyway, no harm in some thought exercise.
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turbof1
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Re: Mandatory Damage Warning

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Just to be clear: I do find this topic interesting, and I do appreciate you opened the dicussion about it. As a theoritical excercise it certainly holds value.

Don't let others discourage you.

I always had the impression that concerning damage to the car there isn't a middle way: either the damage is too great which causes to give up inmediately, or the damage stays within limits and you continue on. The very, very rare case were damage is picked up and worsens over several lap to the point of failure, is most of the time if not always noticed by the team, by which they inform the driver before it ends in a crash.

I think concerning the former there is a need for a revamp of safety. Much more sophisticated systems that detect small, hidden cracks or other problems before those could manifest into a total brake down, informing not only the driver but also the team.
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Shrieker
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Re: Mandatory Damage Warning

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From this thread:
neilbah wrote:[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-dYPXp24sE[/youtube]
I know this accident happens very fast but nevertheless it's interesting to hear that he couldn't figure out what exactly was wrong. It probably wouldn't make any difference in this case even if he knew, but there are some cases where instant warning can grant the driver a precious second or so to react - which is my point.
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Zustoya
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Re: Mandatory Damage Warning

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Shrieker wrote:Warning in advance would be better yes, but I can't really see how such a system could be homologated since every team designs and manufactures parts of their own. Not to mention the amount of r&d it would take to make such a system work reliably. It is the way to go for the future though.
I think you hit the nail on the head. Lot of R&D and $$$ that doesn't make the car go faster is not something the teams would do. FIA would have to introduce it on ,safety grounds'. Would it have saved Roland Ratzenberger? Probably it would have because he would have had an early warning several seconds before entering Villeneuve flat out.

Richard
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Re: Mandatory Damage Warning

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RZS10 wrote:A very thin wire running through the pylons (down through one up through the other) that would snap should the frontwing fail would be sufficient for example, i don't think that would be that hard to implement, but i guess teams have sufficient data/telemetry/visual clues to know that some parts are broken.
That sort of system would use optical fibres, the way the light is transmitted changes as it stretches before failure. Examples are:

Structures :arrow: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=fibre ... on+bridges
Pipelines :arrow: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=fibre ... n+pipeline
Aircraft :arrow: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=fibre ... on+airfame

ilspazzaneve
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Re: Mandatory Damage Warning

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctbYEnlbatY

I didn't see this video yet...^

I think the OP is on to something. Also if you ever sat in a a modern car, you'd quickly realize you can't see hardly anything, even the tires are a visual obstruction. The driver in the modern car is pretty isolated.

DaveKillens
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Re: Mandatory Damage Warning

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A system to improve safety and driver survival should always be taken seriously and examined soberly. But my problem is that I lean heavily towards the KISS principle of always keeping it simple. I never like layering another level of technology on equipment if it can be done in a much simpler way, or if it has flaws.

A driver wants to focus only on what's happening on the track around him, and only wants to look down when absolutely necessary and usually on a straight when no one is close by. I do a lot of sim racing, and it took me many months before I noticed that during a race the grandstands were populated, while in practice they were not.

But my biggest concern is failure of the system, a broken wire.

People should not rely on technology for their lives, and I fear drivers may ignore the car and keep plowing ahead until the car informs the driver of a major equipment failure in the worst way possible.

And what about a false alarm, a rock gets thrown up and strikes an embedded wire? Sure it may offer another level of protection, but if Alonso or Hamilton or Vettel pulled over from leading a race to only discover it was a false alarm, what would be the consequences?

My solution is for the team to station enough spotters around the track to observe, and have an emergency frequency on their radios for that driver to be informed immediately.
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.

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bdr529
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Re: Mandatory Damage Warning

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Shrieker wrote: Anyway, no harm in some thought exercise.
I totally agree, I do think this would be a good thing in the lower formula's, missing half a front wing or the complete rear wing, I think some drivers might not notice right away that something was wrong, till they reached the next turn.
As for formula 1, I not so sure I want the teams embedding some type of wiring into the bodywork, god only knows what kind of cheating that would led to

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Shrieker
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Re: Mandatory Damage Warning

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So this just popped straight back for some strange reason.

What about cameras ? The teams already use them (or have used up until recently) to monitor tire temps. Why not use small on board cameras to monitor damage/missing parts in contact prone areas ? Hell, throw in a stereo camera system with dual cameras on some sections of the car for 3d reconstruction, couple it with some not so advanced digital image processing and you could get a system that works very reliably even for parts as small as front wing cascades for example. All the while remaining relatively low-cost.

It could provide instant warning to both the driver and the team.
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strad
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Re: Mandatory Damage Warning

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IMO The idea is a non starter. Thanks anyway.
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bill shoe
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Re: Mandatory Damage Warning

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Perhaps this driver needed an electronic warning that his forward vision was blocked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAJSzk3Tf_E

Situation develops around 0:20 seconds in.