Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
ollandos
ollandos
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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about speed trap ..looks like prodromou remove very well the drag of the car with new rules is more importal than downforce

3jawchuck
3jawchuck
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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nokivasara wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:33 pm
Are they allowed to use variable geometry turbos?
Sounds a bit like compressor surge but turned up to 11. It's strange that it lasts for so long during every gear change.
I think the technical regulations specifically prohibit variable geometry. However when I tried to search for "variable" in them it found nothing :?:

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godlameroso
423
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Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Variable geometry turbos are not only forbidden in the regulations, they're unnecessary with an MGU-H. The variable geometry turbo has variable geometry so that it flows better at low rpm, and the same at high rpm improving response time. But with an MGU-H you can set the turbo speed regardless of engine speed, and can tune the boost pressure or exhaust back pressure via the blow off valve and exhaust wastegates.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Jef Patat
Jef Patat
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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GoranF1 wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:29 pm
There are definite signs of improvment....if it is true than Mario Ilien is working in Milton Keynes next upgrade engine might be very good.
Sorry, I don't understand Milton Keynes (Red Bull), Mario Ilien (helping out Renault if I recall correctly). Has he moved to Honda?

glenntws
glenntws
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Well, the noises we hear is probably a engine mapping which reacts to upshifting by creating short intervals of "25%-100%" throttle until the engine shake is lowered. At least that's how it sounds like to me.

The question is why they do that. And the answer has to be in the fact, that the new engine is incredibly lightly built and together with a gearbox structure which has the potential to pass the forces happening at upshift to the engine and induce a harmonic > results in extremly hazardous shaking.

Now, Honda obviously uses something like a oscillating load control to counteract against the vibrations happening. They don't use cylinder shutoff to counteract, because they want all six cylinders working to have a "controllable" and most vibrationless running as possible, that's why the oscillate with the loading.

Now, what can they do against that? Certainly, a good point for change is the gearbox housing, they could redesign the structure a bit but that is a pain in the a** to do so because it affects most mechanical parts of the rear-end. Another possible point is the engine (the way they obviously go), where they could implement some struts or a light block and/or head changing to prevent the creation of a harmonic with the engine.


This all explains the lower speed they have, because the maybe have 0.5 seconds per straight, where they don't run on full throttle. Without that, they would definetly be MUCH closer to MB. And with much, I do mean > very close!

This is all my theory. If I have time left, I could try something like a audio analysis but when it comes to this area, it's getting hard to "read the signs" :D

hurril
hurril
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Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

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I really like your posts glenntws!

What makes re-structuring the gearbox casing especially hard?

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dren
288
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:14 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

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hurril wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:54 pm
I really like your posts glenntws!

What makes re-structuring the gearbox casing especially hard?
It's effectively the rear chassis mount for all of your suspension components.
Honda!

hurril
hurril
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Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

dren wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:56 pm
hurril wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:54 pm
I really like your posts glenntws!

What makes re-structuring the gearbox casing especially hard?
It's effectively the rear chassis mount for all of your suspension components.
I sort of understood that but I still want to ask to learn. Plus: the constant bickering and crapping all over Honda is getting really old.

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Wazari
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Disclaimer: The following is fictional and should be read for entertainment purposes only. Any similarities to facts or actual people should be considered purely coincidental. Ok, got that out of the way on the advice of legal counsel.

Well, Friday was officially my last day at HRD. I decided to leave and go back to retirement for many personal reasons. This has nothing to do with my feelings towards Honda. They have been extremely good to me and some of my most enjoyable times in the 40 plus years in the automotive industry have been at Honda Motors. This will be my last post in this forum. I will visit from time to time and for those of you who have my personal email, please feel free to contact me there. I think it’s time to move on and focus on my personal projects that I have neglected in the recent years. Some of you may be wondering why someone like me would be posting here. Well this forum has been a diversion, entertainment and therapy for me. I have had some very difficult mental struggles over the past 18 months and this forum has been a tremendous escape and relief for me though some difficult times. Thank you for many of your kind words and thank you to the haters as you too have given me many a laugh. Being called spineless, clueless, a fraud, idiot, uneducated, etc., has brought me a lot more smiles than anger. If you don’t have thick skin then you don’t belong in F1.

Here’s a recap of my experiences including material based on documents, meetings and conversations with fellow HRD personnel including my nephew.

I was quite surprised when my nephew told me during New Year’s 2013 that Honda was going back into F1. It takes numerous resources and lots of money. I couldn’t understand why Honda would spend hundreds of millions of dollars for this but yet part of me was excited. I figured Honda would enter in the 2017 season based on the new formula proposed for 2014 and the amount of time it takes for R and D to produce a “new concept” PU. And then later when I heard that they were going to supply McLaren starting in 2015 I was quite shocked. There is word 無理 which I think is a very difficult word to translate correctly but it seems Honda forget the meaning and concept of that word. To put together a PU of this complexity in 20 months when others had 48 to 60 months to develop this formula PU seemed like a daunting task. Furthermore with this new token system and PU number restriction, well this was not going to be good no matter how you looked at it.

Then I learned that McLaren had set parameters for an overall packaging requirement. In the past it’s always been my experience in F1, you built the engine and then the bodywork around it. Apparently this time it was going to be the other way around. I blame Honda 100% for accepting this methodology. There were four proposed layouts I discovered for the new PU. Two were based on turbine and compressor both at rear and two with a turbine and compressor on top and in the “V”. Only one fit the proposed requirements and apparently there was no negotiating at this point. Many things were said about how there was no “Size zero” requirement and Honda took it upon themselves to make the packaging as small as possible. Well it really wasn’t quite that simple. For 2016, it’s easy to say that the requirement is no longer needed when wholesale changes can’t be made between 2015 and 2016 because of the token system. But again, I blame Honda 100% for agreeing to this concept knowing that success was going to be impossible in that short a timeframe and with a much compromised layout design. 2016 was trying to make the best of a compromised situation from the start. Hard to win the Kentucky Derby with a 3 legged horse.

I started working with a team dedicated to the 2017 PU back in the spring of last year. I had hopes that some of the concepts could be introduced in 2016 but that did not happen. Lack of time for development and testing made it impossible for an upgrade that I was hoping could be introduced in Malaysia. So it was tabled for 2017. We knew that the previous layout was not a winning combination and as time went on there was no way it ever could be. A major layout change was needed and both Honda and McLaren moved forward making wholesale changes. This in my opinion should have been the PU introduced in 2015. So in essence in my opinion, another 18 months behind. So in that aspect I am extremely proud of what Honda has accomplished in that short amount of time. On the dyno this year’s PU has shown very impressive numbers; better than I ever expected. Reliability is a big issue with so many new, “untested” components. At the end of day, I believe the new PU is a diamond in the rough. New combustion process, completely new layout including block, pistons, crankshaft, rods, pistons, new ERS, new MGU-H etc. It’s all new. There’s going to be a lot of teething pains but in my opinion the only way to beat Mercedes. Obviously they are the benchmark and so far Ferrari, Renault and Honda all have failed in their PU’s compared to them. Honda with the biggest amount of “catching up” to do. How much time will it take? I think realistically 4 to 6 months to resolve the reliability issues. Including one major one that I have mentioned to some of you after the first week of testing, the cylinder head. The PU is a highly stressed component of the chassis and I believe the method of components being attached to the upper portion of the engine including the heads needs to be readdressed.

Honda has made a accomplishment given the timeframe. So that is my take. I am so very proud of HRD no matter what anyone may say. We are not clueless nor a bunch of idiots. Flawed yes, stubborn yes, competitive yes, with a very strong with to win. Honda is not doing this for fun or as a research exercise, they’re in it to win it. That I know for sure. Will they? Time will tell….. The relationship between McLaren and Honda can vastly be improved in my opinion. Kaeru-san needs to go. My dream…..a WCC for Williams Honda in 2019.

Mitsuru
Last edited by Wazari on Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
If you can make the opposition flinch, you have already won.

GoranF1
GoranF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Jef Patat wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:41 pm
GoranF1 wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:29 pm
There are definite signs of improvment....if it is true than Mario Ilien is working in Milton Keynes next upgrade engine might be very good.
Sorry, I don't understand Milton Keynes (Red Bull), Mario Ilien (helping out Renault if I recall correctly). Has he moved to Honda?
I heard a unconfirmed rumor he has left Renault for Honda and works at Honda's MK base as advisor.
"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication & competence."

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godlameroso
423
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit

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glenntws wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:45 pm
Well, the noises we hear is probably a engine mapping which reacts to upshifting by creating short intervals of "25%-100%" throttle until the engine shake is lowered. At least that's how it sounds like to me.

The question is why they do that. And the answer has to be in the fact, that the new engine is incredibly lightly built and together with a gearbox structure which has the potential to pass the forces happening at upshift to the engine and induce a harmonic > results in extremly hazardous shaking.

Now, Honda obviously uses something like a oscillating load control to counteract against the vibrations happening. They don't use cylinder shutoff to counteract, because they want all six cylinders working to have a "controllable" and most vibrationless running as possible, that's why the oscillate with the loading.

Now, what can they do against that? Certainly, a good point for change is the gearbox housing, they could redesign the structure a bit but that is a pain in the a** to do so because it affects most mechanical parts of the rear-end. Another possible point is the engine (the way they obviously go), where they could implement some struts or a light block and/or head changing to prevent the creation of a harmonic with the engine.


This all explains the lower speed they have, because the maybe have 0.5 seconds per straight, where they don't run on full throttle. Without that, they would definetly be MUCH closer to MB. And with much, I do mean > very close!

This is all my theory. If I have time left, I could try something like a audio analysis but when it comes to this area, it's getting hard to "read the signs" :D
Design the block to harvest the strong harmonic vibrations into useful energy. Or make it so the resonant vibrations occur at a different frequency where it is not damaging and cancels out where it would be damaging.

Much like exhausts that drone at low rpm but not at higher rpms.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

glenntws
glenntws
87
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:41 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

Wazari wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:11 pm
Disclaimer: The following is fictional and should be read for entertainment purposes only. Any similarities to facts or actual people should be considered purely coincidental. Ok, got that out of the way on the advice of legal counsel.

Well, Friday was officially my last day at HRD. I decided to leave and go back to retirement for many personal reasons. This has nothing to do with my feelings towards Honda. They have been extremely good to me and some of my most enjoyable times in the 40 plus years in the automotive industry have been at Honda Motors. This will be my last post in this forum. I will visit from time to time and for those of you who have my personal email, please feel free to contact me there. I think it’s time to move on and focus on my personal projects that I have neglected in the recent years. Some of you may be wondering why someone like me would be posting here. Well this forum has been a diversion, entertainment and therapy for me. I have had some very difficult mental struggles over the past 18 months and this forum has been a tremendous escape and relief for me though some difficult times. Thank you for many of your kind words and thank you to the haters as you too have given me many a laugh. Being called spineless, clueless, a fraud, idiot, uneducated, etc., has brought me a lot more smiles than anger. If you don’t have thick skin then you don’t belong in F1.

Here’s a recap of my experiences including material based on documents, meetings and conversations with fellow HRD personnel including my nephew.
I was quite surprised when my nephew told me during New Year’s 2013 that Honda was going back into F1. It takes numerous resources and lots of money. I couldn’t understand why Honda would spend hundreds of millions of dollars for this but yet part of me was excited. I figured Honda would enter in the 2017 season based on the new formula proposed for 2015 and the amount of time it takes for R and D to produce a “new concept” PU. And then later when I heard that they were going to supply McLaren starting in 2015 I was quite shocked. There is word 無理 which I think is a very difficult word to translate correctly but it seems Honda forget the meaning and concept of that word. To put together a PU of this complexity in 20 months when others had 48 to 60 months to develop this formula PU seemed like a daunting task. Furthermore with this new token system and PU number restriction, well this was not going to be good no matter how you looked at it.

Then I learned that McLaren had set parameters for an overall packaging requirement. In the past it’s always been my experience in F1, you built the engine and then the bodywork around it. Apparently this time it was going to be the other way around. I blame Honda 100% for accepting this methodology. There were four proposed layouts I discovered for the new PU. Two were based on turbine and compressor both at rear and two with a turbine and compressor on top and in the “V”. Only one fit the proposed requirements and apparently there was no negotiating at this point. Many things were said about how there was no “Size zero” requirement and Honda took it upon themselves to make the packaging as small as possible. Well it really wasn’t quite that simple. For 2016, it’s easy to say that the requirement is no longer needed when wholesale changes can’t be made between 2015 and 2016 because of the token system. But again, I blame Honda 100% for agreeing to this concept knowing that success was going to be impossible in that short a timeframe and with a much compromised layout design. 2016 was trying to make the best of a compromised situation from the start. Hard to win the Kentucky Derby with a 3 legged horse.

I started working with a team dedicated to the 2017 PU back in the spring of last year. I had hopes that some of the concepts could be introduced in 2016 but that did not happen. Lack of time for development and testing made it impossible for an upgrade that I was hoping could be introduced in Malaysia. So it was tabled for 2017. We knew that the previous layout was not a winning combination and as time went on there was no way it ever could be. A major layout change was needed and both Honda and McLaren moved forward making wholesale changes. This in my opinion should have been the PU introduced in 2015. So in essence in my opinion, another 18 months behind. So in that aspect I am extremely proud of what Honda has accomplished in that short amount of time. On the dyno this year’s PU has shown very impressive numbers; better than I ever expected. Reliability is a big issue with so many new, “untested” components. At the end of day, I believe the new PU is a diamond in the rough. New combustion process, completely new layout including block, pistons, crankshaft, rods, pistons, new ERS, new MGU-H etc. It’s all new. There’s going to be a lot of teething pains but in my opinion the only way to beat Mercedes. Obviously they are the benchmark and so far Ferrari, Renault and Honda all have failed in their PU’s compared to them. Honda with the biggest amount of “catching up” to do. How much time will it take? I think realistically 4 to 6 months to resolve the reliability issues. Including one major one that I have mentioned to some of you after the first week of testing, the cylinder head. The PU is a highly stressed component of the chassis and I believe the method of components being attached to the upper portion of the engine including the heads needs to be readdressed.

Honda has made a accomplishment given the timeframe. So that is my take. I am so very proud of HRD no matter what anyone may say. We are not clueless nor a bunch of idiots. Flawed yes, stubborn yes, competitive yes, with a very strong with to win. Honda is not doing this for fun or as a research exercise, they’re in it to win it. That I know for sure. Will they? Time will tell….. The relationship between McLaren and Honda can vastly be improved in my opinion. Kaeru-san needs to go. My dream…..a WCC for Williams Honda in 2019.

Mitsuru
I've not been registered here since shortly, but I have been a silent reader for several months.

All I can say is thank you, I really believe you are a very nice and intelligent and wise Person and it's been a honor to not only talk to you but also achieve somevery nice compliments from you.

Have a good time!

Glenn

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fausto cedros
0
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:22 am
Location: Brindisi, Italy

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Hi Glenntws
I tried to follow your reasoning above. Do you think working on materials for gears/dogs or changing torsional stiffness of the gearbox shafts would help shifting the natural harmonic transmitted by the gearbox in upshifting?
Just wondering, I am no engine/ transmission wizard. Thank you.
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights. Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere" Anthony Bruce Colin Chapman

glenntws
glenntws
87
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:41 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Honda Power Unit

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fausto cedros wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:27 pm
Hi Glenntws
I tried to follow your reasoning above. Do you think working on materials for gears/dogs or changing torsional stiffness of the gearbox shafts would help shifting the natural harmonic transmitted by the gearbox in upshifting?
Just wondering, I am no engine/ transmission wizard. Thank you.
This could indeed help, but the fact, that every piece in the gearbox itself is finished to the last part, this will be a hard Task. Gearboxes of the last years have been close to impossible already so this will be a hard point. Especially, because you want to Keep the shafts and gears as low as possible (shifting happens witch incredible violence, you want a very low mass in the gearbox, especially on the input shaft from the engine)

By the way, this is for everybody: Just call me glenn. glenntws is a shortage for "Glenn Töws", my full name, but just call me glenn :)

604gtir
604gtir
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Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:44 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Wazari wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:11 pm
Disclaimer: The following is fictional and should be read for entertainment purposes only. Any similarities to facts or actual people should be considered purely coincidental. Ok, got that out of the way on the advice of legal counsel.

This will be my last post in this forum. I will visit from time to time and for those of you who have my personal email, please feel free to contact me there.
good luck with retirement, i hope "This will be my last post in this forum" is part of the fictional statements :D