Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
RedNEO
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by RedNEO » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:18 am

Wazari wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:51 am
Webber2011 wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:26 pm
techman wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:19 am
have to say this is the best decsion honda has done to fire hasegawa. this guy was too scared to speak up. honda needs someone like cyril in renault who can speak up for honda , not say take blame, when honda engineers are saying mclaren running heavy downforce in brazil for example. it was reported in the media.
https://i.imgur.com/DQKsGFq.jpg
Although I would agree that Mr. techman does sound like a broken record at times, this particular post does have a lot of merit. As Mr. Sasha mentioned, Honda doesn't fire people (unless you do something really bad) but in essence Hasegawa-san was dismissed from his position. He could be called a scapegoat but in true Japanese fashion, when things don't go as planned someone must be held accountable. Also according to my nephew, as the season progressed more and more of the Sakura personnel grew displeased with Hasegawa-san's refusal to defend Honda. When one carefully examines all the PU failures this past season, more than half can be attributed to McLaren related issues. If a McLaren design or part failed, or a McLaren tech installed something incorrectly, I cannot think of one instance where he pointed the finger as to the exact cause. He spoke in abstracts and spoke as if all PU related failures were Honda's responsibility. This did not sit well with many of the staff at Sakura and caused some resentment. His response would be, "We're partners, placing blame doesn't help matters and we're a team...." Some saw this as weakness that people like EB and Alonso would verbally abuse Honda for the PU's shortcomings. Some of it was definitely Honda's doing but not all. Yes, the 617 fell short in power and efficiency, but reliability was nowhere near all of Honda's doing with regards to the PU. I must admit, I too would get frustrated at Hasegawa-san for taking blame on Honda's behalf when many times I thought it was not justified. Also since he didn't push back, I think it made it easier for McLaren just to lay all the blame on Honda.

Moving forward, I really don't know how the relationship between TR and Honda will play out. I don't think it can be any more toxic than it was between McLaren and Honda. This will be more of a customer-constructor relationship so it should be better. Also Tanabe-san is more suited to deal with the likes of Horner.
Hasegawa sounds like the better man. If you wanted him to blame McLaren for Honda’s reliablity issues and he refused then good for him for having some back bone. He was a great guy. :D

etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by etusch » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:29 am

I like Hasegawa san. Of course I wanted to see Honda to act McLaren as they deserved, but he looks very polite.
I hope it will be good for Honda and for Hasegawa

Singabule
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Singabule » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:03 am

etusch wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:29 am
I like Hasegawa san. Of course I wanted to see Honda to act McLaren as they deserved, but he looks very polite.
I hope it will be good for Honda and for Hasegawa
That is what you can expect from mature japanese person, but you dont want to be his subordinate, as he May cant defend you and May blame you. If you are asian and work in japanese company you will know, especially when you are not a japanese.

Chicane
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Chicane » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:22 pm

1) Majority of Honda failures were ''HEAT'' related failures of MGU-H. Honda struggled pretty much entire season barring the last three races with MGU-H bearing failures. So how a Mclaren technician installing those components is beyond my comprehension.

2) Hasegawa is a principled man who spoke the facts and not try to spin it in to Honda vs McLaren.

3) Recent article points out to how without Mclaren's help Honda may not even have made it to the grid in Melbourne 2017. These are not my words but words of Honda's Nakamura.

4) Nakamura has only good things to say about Mclaren as to how up until the second preseason test Mclaren were encouraging and supporting Honda but once Honda failed to keep their end of the bargain where they had promised earlier that they will have a working reliable PU in second preseason test things started going south.
Quickshifter

RedNEO
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by RedNEO » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:33 pm

Chicane wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:22 pm
1) Majority of Honda failures were ''HEAT'' related failures of MGU-H. Honda struggled pretty much entire season barring the last three races with MGU-H bearing failures. So how a Mclaren technician installing those components is beyond my comprehension.

2) Hasegawa is a principled man who spoke the facts and not try to spin it in to Honda vs McLaren.

3) Recent article points out to how without Mclaren's help Honda may not even have made it to the grid in Melbourne 2017. These are not my words but words of Honda's Nakamura.

4) Nakamura has only good things to say about Mclaren as to how up until the second preseason test Mclaren were encouraging and supporting Honda but once Honda failed to keep their end of the bargain where they had promised earlier that they will have a working reliable PU in second preseason test things started going south.
+1
Great post.

etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by etusch » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:47 pm

Chicane wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:22 pm
1) Majority of Honda failures were ''HEAT'' related failures of MGU-H. Honda struggled pretty much entire season barring the last three races with MGU-H bearing failures. So how a Mclaren technician installing those components is beyond my comprehension.

2) Hasegawa is a principled man who spoke the facts and not try to spin it in to Honda vs McLaren.

3) Recent article points out to how without Mclaren's help Honda may not even have made it to the grid in Melbourne 2017. These are not my words but words of Honda's Nakamura.

4) Nakamura has only good things to say about Mclaren as to how up until the second preseason test Mclaren were encouraging and supporting Honda but once Honda failed to keep their end of the bargain where they had promised earlier that they will have a working reliable PU in second preseason test things started going south.
Nobody said all failures from McLaren. So remember what Hasegawa said after a retirement of Alonso. "There's any problem with PU"
Remember what Wazari san said about where some mgu-h parts coming from.
It seems you don't know importance of packing for cooling

dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by dren » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:28 pm

Does it really matter at this point who did what? The partnership was a failure.

On to 2018, an evolved but new PU with what should be a decent power and efficiency boost relative to the competition.

Wazari, can you by any chance share any technical information on how the Honda ERS worked or what sort of combustion the ICE was using?
Honda!

Chicane
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Chicane » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:03 pm

etusch wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:47 pm
Chicane wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:22 pm
1) Majority of Honda failures were ''HEAT'' related failures of MGU-H. Honda struggled pretty much entire season barring the last three races with MGU-H bearing failures. So how a Mclaren technician installing those components is beyond my comprehension.

2) Hasegawa is a principled man who spoke the facts and not try to spin it in to Honda vs McLaren.

3) Recent article points out to how without Mclaren's help Honda may not even have made it to the grid in Melbourne 2017. These are not my words but words of Honda's Nakamura.

4) Nakamura has only good things to say about Mclaren as to how up until the second preseason test Mclaren were encouraging and supporting Honda but once Honda failed to keep their end of the bargain where they had promised earlier that they will have a working reliable PU in second preseason test things started going south.
Nobody said all failures from McLaren. So remember what Hasegawa said after a retirement of Alonso. "There's any problem with PU"
Remember what Wazari san said about where some mgu-h parts coming from.
It seems you don't know importance of packing for cooling
Mclaren deal with external packaging and not with internal heat dissipation. MGU-H cooling is something dealt purely by Honda. Honda did not suffer from external packaging issues in 2017.
Quickshifter

gofast182
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by gofast182 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:04 pm

Chicane, if you really want to re-hash this, you might go back and look at what the cause of each failure was reported as 48h after each Grand Prix (versus during the race or immediately after). Make no mistake, Honda holds most of the blame; however, there were non-Honda failures that were attributed to them in the moment because it was easy to do and they were met with little defense from Honda. Just because Hasegawa kept it classy doesn't mean it was right or fair.

It's all water under the bridge at this point.

FW17
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by FW17 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:21 pm

Hasegawa was smart

W does not know what he is wishing for

If Hasegawa had defended anything anything, he would have dragged Honda into mud, atleast now there is some sympathy towards Honda and the Brand. The western media would have torn Hasegawa a new one if he even attempted to pull some stunt like what Cyril pulled. You cant compare Red Bull and Marko which was seen as Nazi by English media to Mclaren.

Hasegawa would have got some brownie points in Japan, but english media would have made sure Honda were buried in terms of mass opinion

McHonda
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by McHonda » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:47 pm

Exactly. Hasegawa was smart and didn't try to deflect which would have been met with even more leaks from McLaren about the true state of the PU and the British press going after them for blaming McLaren.

He was dealing with as big of a grenade as the engine was and he conducted himself perfectly imo and actually limited the damage done to Honda by doing so.

DFX
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by DFX » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:50 pm

techman wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:31 pm
mclaren will not get a positive response from renault cyril if they abuse them verbally in public unlike hasegawa, who simply is a weak leader who cant defend honda when mclaren mechanics stuff things up and blame goes to honda. hope they are ready for the change or the renault verbal attack. and this era if you are weak and dumb, you have no place in this world and you will get drop , that what happened to hasegawa. honda did the smartest thing to move him aside
I dont think you know what a strong leader is, It's easy to say this sort of stuff in hindsight. Hasegawa did the best he could at the time, he knew the package that they had and how it was lacking in performance overall. Entering a blame game with Mclaren, although would appease the technicians and engineears, would not benefit Honda, quite the opposite. They did what they had to, look down and work hard to solve the problems.

Mclaren was quite polite if you compare the relantionship between Renault and RB. I cant even imagine what RB, Horner and Marko, would have done in Mclaren's position.

Squid
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Squid » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:24 pm

I'm so happy McLaren and Honda are done with each other. Some comments here are a perfect illustration of why that relationship was extremely toxic and one-sided. McLaren was all too happy to push all the blame to Honda, and Honda had no option but to accept it? That's what we call an abusive relationship.

Give credit where credit is due, and place blame where blame is deserved.

HPD
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by HPD » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:25 pm

"Accept our own mistakes"
It is the summary of all this discussion. It's not about facing Honda vs. Mclaren.

The problem of the oil tank in the preseason. How long after we learned that it was a problem of Mclaren and not of Honda? (Read hasegawa interviews on the official website of honda).

This is a good example, a whole year, and people still criticize Honda for the oil tank, and it really was a problem for Mclaren. Why did Hasegawa remain silent for so long?

McHonda
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by McHonda » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:58 pm

HPD wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:25 pm
"Accept our own mistakes"
It is the summary of all this discussion. It's not about facing Honda vs. Mclaren.

The problem of the oil tank in the preseason. How long after we learned that it was a problem of Mclaren and not of Honda? (Read hasegawa interviews on the official website of honda).

This is a good example, a whole year, and people still criticize Honda for the oil tank, and it really was a problem for Mclaren. Why did Hasegawa remain silent for so long?
Can we get a summary? I looked but couldn't see it.