Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
hasika
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by hasika » Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:23 pm

Well,i posted something wrong.The RA617H is several KG lighter than RA616H and reach the target.The RA616H didnt reach the target.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by PlatinumZealot » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:01 pm

restless wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:22 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:14 pm
the MGU-K sending electrical energy over 2 MJ/lap to the ES by routeing it via the MGU-H ? - how is that legal ?

what is the form of this activity ?
legalistic electrical fakery or legalistic mechanical fakery (MGU-H/turbo 120000 rpm rotation use as illegal mechanical ES) ?
Afaik 2y ago some people here proposed that using such energy routes is partly the secret of Mercedes domination
Thank Hasika tor initial translation. We need to keep him, Wazari and muramasa close through 2018.

Ok. The mguk cannot send the power through to the enegery store through the mguh terminals! Sure bypasses the lettering of the rules.. But electrically it doesn't. When I read the translation line by line i understand it to be: use mguk to directly boost the turbocharger after 2MJ. And use mguh after MJ to charge the energy store... I may be wrong.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

Zynerji
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Zynerji » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:03 pm

It just sounds like the MGU-K sends the 2MJ to the batteries, and everything extra to over-spin the MGU-H.

Now, you could theoretically send the excess from the K to the H, and pulse the H between harvest and deploy, sending the harvest pulses back to the battery to be used on the next acceleration zone by the K.

The way to stop this madness, in my opinion, is to simply uncap the MGU parts of the car. If they want road relevance, maximum recovery and deployment efficiency would be the goal. That cannot happen when we have arbitrary limits on the number of MJ allowed per lap.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by PlatinumZealot » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:13 pm

That is a good idea. A previous poster said it is like using the MGUH as a flywheel. This makes a lot of sense. Good thinking guys.

Hmm. Could you put a decoupling flywheel onto the mguh?!! Is that legal?
Decouple when you want boost. Couple up when you want to store energy?

Or maybe put some super capacitors in the mguh (electrical version of a flywheel) is that legal? Lol

:shock: holy moly. Hmm. The wastegates and blow off valve! In MGUH flywheel mode you can use the wastegates and blowoff to remove mechanical load of the turboshaft so you can use the mugh as better flywheel!
What do u guys think?
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

MrPotatoHead
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by MrPotatoHead » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:34 pm

Craigy wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:55 pm
hasika wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:30 am
But how can we keep the A/F in the pre-chamber and have higger homozygosity (i dont know much about technology things so i dont know how to translate the word 均質性,) in the main combustion chamber.
Just a word on the spelling/translation for non-English speakers;
I think this part is saying "higher homogeneity" - that is to say, more homogeneous: more evenly-spread, more consistent density of mixture in the combustion chamber.

I'd like to thank Hasika for this post too, very informative. I like Honda's honesty with this stuff - at the end of each season they generally say "here's what we did.."
^^^ This. I wish the other manufacturers were even half as open as Honda.
This is why I want Honda to get their act together and do well in F1 again.

MrPotatoHead
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by MrPotatoHead » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:35 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:13 pm
That is a good idea. A previous poster said it is like using the MGUH as a flywheel. This makes a lot of sense. Good thinking guys.

Hmm. Could you put a decoupling flywheel onto the mguh?!! Is that legal?
Decouple when you want boost. Couple up when you want to store energy?

Or maybe put some super capacitors in the mguh (electrical version of a flywheel) is that legal? Lol

:shock: holy moly. Hmm. The wastegates and blow off valve! In MGUH flywheel mode you can use the wastegates and blowoff to remove mechanical load of the turboshaft so you can use the mugh as better flywheel!
What do u guys think?
You can have a clutch do decouple the MGU-H motor from the turbocharger.

dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by dren » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:54 pm

Hasika, can you expand on what it is saying about the MGUH hertz to the right of the extra harvest diagram?

I'm assuming the partial energy regen on the MGUK is partial throttle?
Honda!

MrPotatoHead
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by MrPotatoHead » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:09 pm

dren wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:54 pm
Hasika, can you expand on what it is saying about the MGUH hertz to the right of the extra harvest diagram?

I'm assuming the partial energy regen on the MGUK is partial throttle?
It's talking about the frequency of the MGU-H harvesting that is being sent to the ES.
The top line is Throttle Position so one can assume this is during cylinder cutting when off throttle.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by PlatinumZealot » Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:02 pm

It says 20 to 40hz.

Could be anything.
If it was relating to the engine rpm that is approximately 8000rpm to 16000rpm.

I know it can't be electrical frequency that is too low.

It could be a vribration frequency ramge. But that is too wide a range!
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

MrPotatoHead
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by MrPotatoHead » Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:04 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:02 pm
It says 20 to 40hz.

Could be anything.
If it was relating to the engine rpm that is approximately 8000rpm to 16000rpm.

I know it can't be electrical frequency that is too low.

It could be a vribration frequency ramge. But that is too wide a range!
It's talking about the frequency of the MGU-H harvesting!

amho
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by amho » Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:40 pm

MrPotatoHead wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:04 pm
It's talking about the frequency of the MGU-H harvesting!
I don't think so, as far as I know frequency of MGU-H harvesting is proportional to rotational speed of mgu-h, so if mgu-h rotates at 120K rpm then for a 2-pole generator fec of harvesting is 2000 hz.
There is no Might or Power except with Allah.

Zynerji
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Zynerji » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:27 pm

MrPotatoHead wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:04 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:02 pm
It says 20 to 40hz.

Could be anything.
If it was relating to the engine rpm that is approximately 8000rpm to 16000rpm.

I know it can't be electrical frequency that is too low.

It could be a vribration frequency ramge. But that is too wide a range!
It's talking about the frequency of the MGU-H harvesting!
That sounds like it is switching between harvest and deploy at 40Hz.

You wouldn't want to use the waste gate and blow off valve, I don't think, that's wasting energy. What if they did it like thus:

100% mguk harvest goes to -> 50% battery 50% mguh, then mguh is cycling 40 times a second, being accelerated by the mguk, and recovering from the exhaust turbine and the added kinetic energy from the mguk, and putting 100% into the battery.

Im sure mguk is used on corner exit, as torque is your daddy for accelerating, so it would then have the full battery driving the mguk, with the mguh switching from the battery charging to powering the mguk.

These control schemes would be so much better if they allowed the front brake inner shrouds to house wire coils, and have magnets along the inner rim to add front wheel recovery.

MrPotatoHead
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by MrPotatoHead » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:35 pm

amho wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:40 pm
MrPotatoHead wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:04 pm
It's talking about the frequency of the MGU-H harvesting!
I don't think so, as far as I know frequency of MGU-H harvesting is proportional to rotational speed of mgu-h, so if mgu-h rotates at 120K rpm then for a 2-pole generator fec of harvesting is 2000 hz.
Translate it...
The chart is showing the difference between "Extra Harvest On" and "Extra Harvest Off"
You can clearly see the 20 to 40 HZ in the data plot.

Craigy
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Craigy » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:56 pm

MrPotatoHead wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:35 pm
amho wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:40 pm
MrPotatoHead wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:04 pm
It's talking about the frequency of the MGU-H harvesting!
I don't think so, as far as I know frequency of MGU-H harvesting is proportional to rotational speed of mgu-h, so if mgu-h rotates at 120K rpm then for a 2-pole generator fec of harvesting is 2000 hz.
Translate it...
The chart is showing the difference between "Extra Harvest On" and "Extra Harvest Off"
You can clearly see the 20 to 40 HZ in the data plot.
I wrote a post saying this about 2 years ago, and guessed at 100Hz.

I didn't post it at the time.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Tommy Cookers » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:47 am

so is this legal or illegal ? (drawing more than 4 MJ/lap from these 2 Energy Stores)
or is it FIA-legal ? (legal if you're this year's underdog called Honda)

the turbine might accelerate and decelerate 2000 rpm per cycle at the cycle frequencies suggested
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:04 am, edited 1 time in total.