Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
MrPotatoHead
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by MrPotatoHead » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:51 am

Craigy wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:56 pm
MrPotatoHead wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:35 pm
amho wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:40 pm

I don't think so, as far as I know frequency of MGU-H harvesting is proportional to rotational speed of mgu-h, so if mgu-h rotates at 120K rpm then for a 2-pole generator fec of harvesting is 2000 hz.
Translate it...
The chart is showing the difference between "Extra Harvest On" and "Extra Harvest Off"
You can clearly see the 20 to 40 HZ in the data plot.
I wrote a post saying this about 2 years ago, and guessed at 100Hz.

I didn't post it at the time.
But we don't know what we're talking about ;-)

Craigy
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Craigy » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:45 am

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:47 am
so is this legal or illegal ? (drawing more than 4 MJ/lap from these 2 Energy Stores)
or is it FIA-legal ? (legal if you're this year's underdog called Honda)

the turbine might accelerate and decelerate 2000 rpm per cycle at the cycle frequencies suggested
I don't see what would be illegal about any of this. It's all within the energy flow rules, from my reading of them.

The only questionable part would be the use of the MGU-H as a flywheel, but it's impossible for it not to be one.

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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Mudflap » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:55 am

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:13 pm
That is a good idea. A previous poster said it is like using the MGUH as a flywheel. This makes a lot of sense. Good thinking guys.

:shock: holy moly. Hmm. The wastegates and blow off valve! In MGUH flywheel mode you can use the wastegates and blowoff to remove mechanical load of the turboshaft so you can use the mugh as better flywheel!
What do u guys think?
I think you are on to something there.
How much TQ does it make though?

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:14 am

If anything this goes to show that combustion still runs the show. The more efficient the combustion process the easier it gets to not only do but discover neat tricks such as these. It gives not just more crank power, which we now know can become electrical energy in addition to simply being used to brake the car.

If this is true then the MGU-K to MGU-H connection becomes in effect a supercharger belt with lower friction losses which can be engaged at will.

It's all down to combustion, as this is ultimately what's charging the battery. The more efficient your combustion the easier it is to make the ERS compromise.

These regulations force you to take an indirect approach to something that should be easy and straightforward. I guess that's the charm, it forces you to think so far out of the box, that if you don't have a very clear goal or direction you will be chasing your tail and go nowhere. It's like finding and charting islands for the very first time with nothing but stars to guide you.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:41 am

Zynerji wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:27 pm
MrPotatoHead wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:04 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:02 pm
It says 20 to 40hz.

Could be anything.
If it was relating to the engine rpm that is approximately 8000rpm to 16000rpm.

I know it can't be electrical frequency that is too low.

It could be a vribration frequency ramge. But that is too wide a range!
It's talking about the frequency of the MGU-H harvesting!
That sounds like it is switching between harvest and deploy at 40Hz.

You wouldn't want to use the waste gate and blow off valve, I don't think, that's wasting energy. What if they did it like thus:

100% mguk harvest goes to -> 50% battery 50% mguh, then mguh is cycling 40 times a second, being accelerated by the mguk, and recovering from the exhaust turbine and the added kinetic energy from the mguk, and putting 100% into the battery.

Im sure mguk is used on corner exit, as torque is your daddy for accelerating, so it would then have the full battery driving the mguk, with the mguh switching from the battery charging to powering the mguk.

These control schemes would be so much better if they allowed the front brake inner shrouds to house wire coils, and have magnets along the inner rim to add front wheel recovery.
So in other words...

To be charging and discharging at 40hz Implies the switching electronics are working overtime to switch between generator and motor at while the mguh turns in the same direction.

It implies net mguh battery charging during those braking periods when 2mj is already collected. The batter does no work but the mguk, mguh and power electronics are chagring it. Meaning, the mugk spins the mguh on the "up cycle" in 1/40 seconds via the power electronics.
On the "down cycle" the mugk sends current to the battery in 1/40seconds and during that same time period the mguh uses the residual momentum from the previous "up cycle" to generate current and charge the battery..

The process is likely not efficient but it is only done in times of excess when mguk
has gone over the regulated limit of 2MJ. The frequncy is so fast that the cables would basically be large radio antennae. Enough for a rival team to receive the signals and analyse the charging strategies. This is probably how Honda and the other teams figured out Mecedes' superior harvesting.

The electronic wizardry is definitely very high level to pull off precise and fast switching like this. It is easy to see why Honda never caught on to this trick right away, much less replicate it. This strategy labelled as "extra harvest" in the magazine graphs they spent nearly all of 2016 mastering it by the looks of things. Thank God Honda is so transparent to us fans!
Last edited by PlatinumZealot on Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:42 am

Mudflap wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:55 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:13 pm
That is a good idea. A previous poster said it is like using the MGUH as a flywheel. This makes a lot of sense. Good thinking guys.

:shock: holy moly. Hmm. The wastegates and blow off valve! In MGUH flywheel mode you can use the wastegates and blowoff to remove mechanical load of the turboshaft so you can use the mugh as better flywheel!
What do u guys think?
I think you are on to something there.
Craigy' idea. Not mine! :D
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by etusch » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:25 am

İs there any rule about MGU-H motor number. Could it be two or something can work like two different motor?

Webber2011
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Webber2011 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:30 am

etusch wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:25 am
İs there any rule about MGU-H motor number. Could it be two or something can work like two different motor?
Not sure what you mean mate, but mgu-h is limited to 3
I'd imagine that means the whole unit ?

etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by etusch » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:45 am

Webber2011 wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:30 am
etusch wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:25 am
İs there any rule about MGU-H motor number. Could it be two or something can work like two different motor?
Not sure what you mean mate, but mgu-h is limited to 3
I'd imagine that means the whole unit ?
No I mean can it be two combined motor in one mgu-h unit for producing electric from mgu-k harvest. if they can use clutch too, then, if there is not any restriction about using two motor in same unit, they can almost save whole 2 mj harvest coming from mgu-k by reproducing it.

mclaren111
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by mclaren111 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:15 pm

Autosport.com

Honda will have its current Formula 1 engine available as a back-up if there are problems with its 2018 specification.

Honda completed a major revamp of its engine design over the 2016-17 winter, but a problem with the oil system put it on the back foot at the start of the season and it endured many problems trying to recover.
Is this a bad sign or what ??? :? :?

Craigy
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Craigy » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:18 pm

mclaren111 wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:15 pm
Autosport.com

Honda will have its current Formula 1 engine available as a back-up if there are problems with its 2018 specification.

Honda completed a major revamp of its engine design over the 2016-17 winter, but a problem with the oil system put it on the back foot at the start of the season and it endured many problems trying to recover.
Is this a bad sign or what ??? :? :?
Maybe just a sensible thing to have a "plan B" in case of the same sort of reliability trouble Honda have endured in previous years. With a new chassis partner, reliability is more important than performance in the first few races.

mclaren111
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by mclaren111 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:27 pm

Craigy wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:18 pm
mclaren111 wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:15 pm
Autosport.com

Honda will have its current Formula 1 engine available as a back-up if there are problems with its 2018 specification.

Honda completed a major revamp of its engine design over the 2016-17 winter, but a problem with the oil system put it on the back foot at the start of the season and it endured many problems trying to recover.
Is this a bad sign or what ??? :? :?
Maybe just a sensible thing to have a "plan B" in case of the same sort of reliability trouble Honda have endured in previous years. With a new chassis partner, reliability is more important than performance in the first few races.
"We haven't decided next year's complete specification but at least we have a back-up plan, which is the current engine. So, I'm sure we can start the season well next year.

As a Honda fan as well I would have liked a bit better

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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Mudflap » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:29 pm

The way I interpret this 'Plan B' thing is that Honda are a bit behind developing the 2018 spec which was to be expected since they kept on releasing small updates toward the end of last season rather than freezing the design early and focusing on the year ahead.



What about this - it seems to contradict almost everything Wazari has said about outside help:
In 2017, Honda took advantage of input from outside consultants to help it fast track improvements, although it will not reveal who it has been working with.

From next year, Honda plans to continue with those partnerships and even extend them.

"We started many collaborations with other partners, the identity of which we don't normally disclose," said Hasegawa.

"We can see results from that project.

"We will continue those collaborations. There's no reason to stop. We even have to enhance the collaboration more.

"I understand most people think Honda has tried to do it by themselves. But it's not right. We're happy to invite outside resource, and we do.
How much TQ does it make though?

HPD
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by HPD » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:34 pm

mclaren111 wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:15 pm
Autosport.com
Honda will have its current Formula 1 engine available as a back-up if there are problems with its 2018 specification.
Honda completed a major revamp of its engine design over the 2016-17 winter, but a problem with the oil system put it on the back foot at the start of the season and it endured many problems trying to recover.
Is this a bad sign or what ??? :? :?
Hello friend, about your question, I invite you to read the General Honda F1 thread.
Some time ago it was decided to split the Honda threads to maintain order.
regards

mclaren111
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by mclaren111 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:38 pm

Sorry !!!