Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Webber2011
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Webber2011 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:59 pm

Mudflap wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:29 pm
The way I interpret this 'Plan B' thing is that Honda are a bit behind developing the 2018 spec which was to be expected since they kept on releasing small updates toward the end of last season rather than freezing the design early and focusing on the year ahead.



What about this - it seems to contradict almost everything Wazari has said about outside help:
In 2017, Honda took advantage of input from outside consultants to help it fast track improvements, although it will not reveal who it has been working with.

From next year, Honda plans to continue with those partnerships and even extend them.

"We started many collaborations with other partners, the identity of which we don't normally disclose," said Hasegawa.

"We can see results from that project.

"We will continue those collaborations. There's no reason to stop. We even have to enhance the collaboration more.

"I understand most people think Honda has tried to do it by themselves. But it's not right. We're happy to invite outside resource, and we do.
In what way ?

Chicane
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Chicane » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:03 pm

The much touted Spec 4 never saw the light. People said it is because Honda are holding it back for strategic reasons as Mclaren are not with them for 2018. Honda going by recent AMUS numbers are 68hp behind Mercedes and if they start the season with the engine they finished 2017, in a Chassis where Toro Rosso have had little time to adapt, it is going to be a painful start.

Testing 2018 chassis and engine simultaneously is paramount especially since this is the first year of partnership which came to life only a few months back. It would be great if Honda can manage to produce a significant step for 2018 but looks like it is going to be yet another season of playing catch up at the back of the grid. Honda has huge resources and know how and this is their 4th year yet they aren't confident of getting their 2018 power unit reliable by preseason testing. It is even more surprising since Hasegawa has been touting about how he is confident about reliability as 2018 will be a continuation and evolution of the concept.
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Mudflap
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Mudflap » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:28 pm

Webber2011 wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:59 pm
In what way ?
He said Honda's issues were the result of a mishmash of design philosophies, 'too many cooks' were the words if I remember correctly. I think he then said that late season designs or next year's spec are all pure Honda with no outside involvement.

Edit - did a bit of trawling and I think I misunderstood. I think he said they will continue with the current layout which has input from multiple parties. The MGUH will be entirely Honda, whatever that means.
How much TQ does it make though?

Richard Casto
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Richard Casto » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:13 pm

etusch wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:45 am
Webber2011 wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:30 am
etusch wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:25 am
İs there any rule about MGU-H motor number. Could it be two or something can work like two different motor?
Not sure what you mean mate, but mgu-h is limited to 3
I'd imagine that means the whole unit ?
No I mean can it be two combined motor in one mgu-h unit for producing electric from mgu-k harvest. if they can use clutch too, then, if there is not any restriction about using two motor in same unit, they can almost save whole 2 mj harvest coming from mgu-k by reproducing it.
I wondered the same. Could one run as the motor in this special harvesting mode and the other acts as the generator? Connected by the shaft? No need to switch a single unit back and forth between motor and generator? Or is this physically wasteful of space, mass and complexity and it’s just easier to do as suggested above (one unit that switches back and forth with energy stored via flywheel)? Or it just may not be legal?

Also...

Does this new method potentially have any impact on MGU-H bearing life? Or is it more likely that as long as they had bearing/longevity issues they couldn’t use this mode until later in the season? That this mode might have aggravated existing bearing issues?

Richard

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:25 pm

You dont need two motors to do that.
Even normal motors act as a simultaneous generator thru back EMF. However if a full fledged generator is needed a second set of windings can be used and coordinated with the motorwinding. This is tricky hecause the field flux has to be controlled to give the right motor and generator characteristics.
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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:40 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:41 am
Zynerji wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:27 pm
MrPotatoHead wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:04 pm


It's talking about the frequency of the MGU-H harvesting!
That sounds like it is switching between harvest and deploy at 40Hz.

You wouldn't want to use the waste gate and blow off valve, I don't think, that's wasting energy. What if they did it like thus:

100% mguk harvest goes to -> 50% battery 50% mguh, then mguh is cycling 40 times a second, being accelerated by the mguk, and recovering from the exhaust turbine and the added kinetic energy from the mguk, and putting 100% into the battery.

Im sure mguk is used on corner exit, as torque is your daddy for accelerating, so it would then have the full battery driving the mguk, with the mguh switching from the battery charging to powering the mguk.

These control schemes would be so much better if they allowed the front brake inner shrouds to house wire coils, and have magnets along the inner rim to add front wheel recovery.
So in other words...

To be charging and discharging at 40hz Implies the switching electronics are working overtime to switch between generator and motor at while the mguh turns in the same direction.

It implies net mguh battery charging during those braking periods when 2mj is already collected. The batter does no work but the mguk, mguh and power electronics are chagring it. Meaning, the mugk spins the mguh on the "up cycle" in 1/40 seconds via the power electronics.
On the "down cycle" the mugk sends current to the battery in 1/40seconds and during that same time period the mguh uses the residual momentum from the previous "up cycle" to generate current and charge the battery..

The process is likely not efficient but it is only done in times of excess when mguk
has gone over the regulated limit of 2MJ. The frequncy is so fast that the cables would basically be large radio antennae. Enough for a rival team to receive the signals and analyse the charging strategies. This is probably how Honda and the other teams figured out Mecedes' superior harvesting.

The electronic wizardry is definitely very high level to pull off precise and fast switching like this. It is easy to see why Honda never caught on to this trick right away, much less replicate it. This strategy labelled as "extra harvest" in the magazine graphs they spent nearly all of 2016 mastering it by the looks of things. Thank God Honda is so transparent to us fans!
The switching circuits on the control electronics are capable of 20,000hz 40hz is nothing. In an unrelated point, similar to how induction stoves work you can transform heat to electricity and vice versa with very little losses if find the right AC resonant frequency. Not terribly difficult to wire the MGU-H to the turbine housing and make it get hotter.
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MrPotatoHead
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by MrPotatoHead » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:23 pm

The 2017 engine is Plan B?
That's interesting because it would mean the 2018 Engine (aka Spec 4.0) would have to be physically the same size and shape as the 2017 engine to be able to swap them in the same chassis...
This does not agree with statements made here about why the Spec 4.0 was not running in car in 2017...

bauc
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by bauc » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:28 pm

MrPotatoHead wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:23 pm
The 2017 engine is Plan B?
That's interesting because it would mean the 2018 Engine (aka Spec 4.0) would have to be physically the same size and shape as the 2017 engine to be able to swap them in the same chassis...
This does not agree with statements made here about why the Spec 4.0 was not running in car in 2017...
Great Point!
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:40 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:40 pm
40hz is nothing. In an unrelated point, similar to how induction stoves work you can transform heat to electricity and vice versa with very little losses if find the right AC resonant frequency. Not terribly difficult to wire the MGU-H to the turbine housing and make it get hotter.
You miss my point. If you remember fourier mathematics, right.. The 2,000hz (or whatver it is) waveforms are superimposed within the 40hz wafeform!
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Snorked
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Snorked » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:41 pm

Isn't that interview from months ago? I could've swore I read something similar with Hasegawa talking about not deciding about next season spec, etc. It might have even been before the McLaren split was made official.


Amus says the 3.8 spec Honda PU produced 881bhp, is this correct, Wazari?
We got the horsepower data of the four manufacturers for the internal combustion engine in kilowatts and then count on another 163 hp of electric power. Theoretically, the full battery should last for 33 seconds. In fact, at least Mercedes boosts the entire lap on every racetrack. Because the MGU-H more electric power indicator: contributed as the battery can absorb. The then goes from the MGU-H directly into the MGU-K.

Now to the numbers. After these measurements, the Mercedes M08 V6 Turbo has a system performance of 949 hp. Ferrari comes to 934 hp, Renault to 907 hp and Honda with the latest specification to 881 hp. Previously, the Japanese just scratched at the 860 hp mark".

The gap between Mercedes and the competition is also evident in consumption. For 305 kilometers of the GP Mexico burned the Mercedes six-cylinder 89 kilograms of fuel. The competition needed 10 kilograms more.

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:35 pm

MrPotatoHead wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:23 pm
The 2017 engine is Plan B?
That's interesting because it would mean the 2018 Engine (aka Spec 4.0) would have to be physically the same size and shape as the 2017 engine to be able to swap them in the same chassis...
This does not agree with statements made here about why the Spec 4.0 was not running in car in 2017...
The difference is all in the heads and combustion chamber along with the turbo, things that can be changed without altering the layout.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by etusch » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:56 pm

Snorked wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:41 pm
Isn't that interview from months ago? I could've swore I read something similar with Hasegawa talking about not deciding about next season spec, etc. It might have even been before the McLaren split was made official.


Amus says the 3.8 spec Honda PU produced 881bhp, is this correct, Wazari?
We got the horsepower data of the four manufacturers for the internal combustion engine in kilowatts and then count on another 163 hp of electric power. Theoretically, the full battery should last for 33 seconds. In fact, at least Mercedes boosts the entire lap on every racetrack. Because the MGU-H more electric power indicator: contributed as the battery can absorb. The then goes from the MGU-H directly into the MGU-K.

Now to the numbers. After these measurements, the Mercedes M08 V6 Turbo has a system performance of 949 hp. Ferrari comes to 934 hp, Renault to 907 hp and Honda with the latest specification to 881 hp. Previously, the Japanese just scratched at the 860 hp mark".

The gap between Mercedes and the competition is also evident in consumption. For 305 kilometers of the GP Mexico burned the Mercedes six-cylinder 89 kilograms of fuel. The competition needed 10 kilograms more.
When it come to fuel consumption we must remember Honda engine weight. İf Honda can reach ferrari level with same consumption without adding weight to the engine ( many if) they will have advantage.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Tommy Cookers » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:03 pm

the reason they're using 20 Hz etc is mainly because ......
K generator power varying at eg 5 Hz would have the car surging on its transmission (but it's dead to 20 Hz)
and because 5 Hz would mean much greater rpm excursions and gas pumping losses

the disadvantage of eg 20 Hz .......
24000 rpm is 400 pulses/sec which limits the scope for slewing the excitation pulses to maintain synchrony throughout cycle
and they're reaching the rate of voltage change beyond which less current is driven through the H relative to applied voltage

it's a compromise
whose purpose and effect is to increase energy accumulation from fuel given that actual fuel accumulation is strictly banned
(pulsing at 20 Hz etc shows they aren't using novel MGs that simultaneously M and G because those would be run steadily)
so that all or most of the MGU-H generation can be used directly by MGU-K motoring
btw the drives have dedicated capacitive ES anyway - and this is presumably being added to the inertial mechanical ES effect
when cars get more drag and more roadholding genuine K recovery (braking) falls and fuel-driven recovery incentivised

unbanning fuel accumulation would be far simpler and cheaper and lighter and more reliable
often we now have 750 hp ICEs with 160 hp EMs driving on acceleration and being ICE-driven after acceleration
ie 910 hp hybrid PU for acceleration and 590 hp hybrid PU after acceleration - lapping quicker than a fixed 750 hp would
unbanning fuel accumulation (losing rate limits) will release from ICEs 910 hp for acceleration and 590 hp after acceleration
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wazari
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Wazari » Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:28 am

MrPotatoHead wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:23 pm
The 2017 engine is Plan B?
That's interesting because it would mean the 2018 Engine (aka Spec 4.0) would have to be physically the same size and shape as the 2017 engine to be able to swap them in the same chassis...
This does not agree with statements made here about why the Spec 4.0 was not running in car in 2017...
Components from 2017 engine (Plan B), Also 2018 engine does not have be same size. It can be larger. Plumbing and gearbox are the key to swap. If the older engine is slightly smaller and lighter, that doesn't pose a major issue. If it's substantially larger than obviously it does. We're talking MM's here, not CM's.

The 881 HP figure is close but a little under. The gap to Renault is not that much.
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McMika98
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by McMika98 » Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:35 am

Thanks for the info @ Wazari.

Is the peak Hp north or south of 900?
I guess it would be very difficult to guesstimate the Hp figures for McHonda as they cannot compare and correlate with data from other cars, unlike with competitor engines.
Overall the general trend seems to be an average of 50hp gain every year since 2015. Given the gap to the top engine is quite big, do you think Honda will catch up with the other two by next year?