My mind glazed over as I read much of the recent discussion about energy flow. But with this post I get it!Craigy wrote: ↑03 Jan 2018, 16:13So long as the ES SoC doesn't go below a nominal 0 or above a maximum 4MJ,
The ES can transfer any amount of energy you like to the H, at any rate.
The H can transfer any amount of energy you like to the K, at any rate (though the K can only "consume" energy at 120kW).
The suggestion is that this ES to H transfer, then H to K transfer is interleaved, and the switch is done many times per second, and that it's also a reversible process (that is to say the K can charge up the ES using the H as a go-between).
The "unusual energy flow" is legal according to my reading of the rules. What rule would it breach, according to your reading of the rules?
There's an energy limit of 2MJ on the direct connection from K->ES per lap per FIA F1 technical regulations.
They are actually talking about using the unlimited energy transfer between the MGUK and MGUH to cheat the 2MJ MGUK to ES storage limit.bill shoe wrote: ↑04 Jan 2018, 10:47My mind glazed over as I read much of the recent discussion about energy flow. But with this post I get it!Craigy wrote: ↑03 Jan 2018, 16:13So long as the ES SoC doesn't go below a nominal 0 or above a maximum 4MJ,
The ES can transfer any amount of energy you like to the H, at any rate.
The H can transfer any amount of energy you like to the K, at any rate (though the K can only "consume" energy at 120kW).
The suggestion is that this ES to H transfer, then H to K transfer is interleaved, and the switch is done many times per second, and that it's also a reversible process (that is to say the K can charge up the ES using the H as a go-between).
The "unusual energy flow" is legal according to my reading of the rules. What rule would it breach, according to your reading of the rules?
The H has non-zero rotational inertia, so it has mechanical energy storage capability whether we like it or not. Energy rate in or out the H is unlimited. But energy can only be put into the K at 120kW. So anytime you are "on the gas" the K will always be fed 120 kW of electrical power. The source of this power just switches back and forth rapidly between the 4MJ ES supply and the H rotational-inertia supply. In this manner the ES 4MJ is prolonged over the entire lap even though the K is always getting 120kW of power. In the milliseconds when the K is fed by the ES instead of the H, the H is also getting fed by the ES. Brilliant.
Just putting it in my own words to help myself understand it better. Craigy has good candidate for best post of the year.
I'm afraid you're wrong there. The basis for this is an idea I had about 2 years ago. Happily, I posted on F1technical about it at the time so I can prove it.
I'm not sure where you're getting 80hp (60kW) from. The H isn't limited to 60kW. It is not limited at all.wuzak wrote: ↑04 Jan 2018, 11:20Switching between the ES and MGUH to drive the MGUK would seem to be pointless, as you would be switching between having 160hp and 80hp. Better to use the MGUH to send all its power to the MGUK as a continuous stream and supplement that with power from the ES. That way you are drawing a lower power level from the ES to give to the MGUK and still have 160hp output.
An estimate.Craigy wrote: ↑04 Jan 2018, 11:48I'm not sure where you're getting 80hp (60kW) from. The H isn't limited to 60kW. It is not limited at all.wuzak wrote: ↑04 Jan 2018, 11:20Switching between the ES and MGUH to drive the MGUK would seem to be pointless, as you would be switching between having 160hp and 80hp. Better to use the MGUH to send all its power to the MGUK as a continuous stream and supplement that with power from the ES. That way you are drawing a lower power level from the ES to give to the MGUK and still have 160hp output.
Why suggest 60kW when there's more performance available by giving it a larger capacity?wuzak wrote: ↑04 Jan 2018, 11:57An estimate.Craigy wrote: ↑04 Jan 2018, 11:48I'm not sure where you're getting 80hp (60kW) from. The H isn't limited to 60kW. It is not limited at all.wuzak wrote: ↑04 Jan 2018, 11:20Switching between the ES and MGUH to drive the MGUK would seem to be pointless, as you would be switching between having 160hp and 80hp. Better to use the MGUH to send all its power to the MGUK as a continuous stream and supplement that with power from the ES. That way you are drawing a lower power level from the ES to give to the MGUK and still have 160hp output.
It sure as hell isn't recovering 160hp from the exhaust. And if it was, you wouldn't need to muck around with the stuff you are proposing.
The H could only ever receive 120kW (plus a small efficiency factor) from the K, as the K is limited to 120kW in either motor or generator mode.Craigy wrote: ↑04 Jan 2018, 12:36Why suggest 60kW when there's more performance available by giving it a larger capacity?
Is your estimate based purely on using the H as a recovery device for the exhaust, ignoring the opportunities of the flywheel system?
If the exhaust recovery is the smaller of the two jobs here (and it is, unless someone has built an engine with 120kW of recoverable exhaust energy), then there's no reason to size the H as small as only 60kW.
If you want the H to power the K, it should be able to deploy at 120kW in that direction (H->K) as that's what the K is permitted to consume in the regulations.
On the flipside, if you want the H to be able to charge up the ES, it should be able to send power there at whatever rate you're getting from the exhaust recovery (say, peak 60kW as you suggest, just for discussion), PLUS whatever rate you want to discharge energy from H flywheel inertia to ES at.
Since you want to spend a small amount of time with the H not being charged by the K, you would make that rate quite high - it wouldn't need to be limited to 60kW, or even 120kW. It could easily be 240kW or more from H to ES.
Either way, the H should be able to receive power from the K at a minimum of at least 120kW since that's what the K is capable of.
Before braking may be simply lift and coast, rather than burning fuel.Tommy Cookers wrote: ↑04 Jan 2018, 13:07now we are looking at electrically accumulating and using much more energy, taken from the burning of fuel
we have a few days ago seen that Honda are K generating before any braking