Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Nonserviam85
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Nonserviam85 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:23 pm

Craigy wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:46 pm
Nonserviam85 wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:31 pm
Craigy wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:13 pm
My point is this. Why have the 4 MJ and 2 MJ limits on K transfers then allow those limits to be breached by sending the energy - to the same place - by a different route? If this is happening and the FIA knows about it (and they would because it would be obvious in the data) they would ban it! It is a device/strategy designed purely to circumvent a rule. It isn't happening IMO.
Why you say that? F1 is full of examples of following the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law...Unless someone proves or hints that a specific manufacturers gains a huge advantage compared to the others I don't believe it should be banned, especially if all manufacturers do the same.
I think your quotes are a little messed up there nonserviam. They suggest I am saying things GG said and vice-versa.
You are right, I deleted an extra line of quote there...I'll try and fix it

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by PlatinumZealot » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:44 pm

Craigy wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:37 am
wuzak wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:20 am
...The basis for this is an energy flow diagram which depicts 1MJ being sent from the MGUK to the MGUH and then 1MJ from the MGUH to the MGUK, and a set of squiggly lines on a performance plot.
I'm afraid you're wrong there. The basis for this is an idea I had about 2 years ago. Happily, I posted on F1technical about it at the time so I can prove it.
The timestamp for that post is Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:36 pm. It's in the Mercedes PU thread if you want to read it.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=23688&p=617506

My idea at the time wasn't fully-formed as I was missing the "switch it on and off fast to keep the compressor in the correct working range" part of the solution.

I didn't keep talking it through at the time, because of the reaction from gruntguru and others.

It was nice to see the Honda article though.
Yeah.
Yeah very creative thinking there. You deserve a gold star for that.

Wazari
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Wazari » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:36 pm

Some great stuff here. Unfortunately this is one area where I am definitely prohibited from speaking on specifics.

However, a few weeks ago, I attended a sailing symposium (that's a another story) and a fellow engineer from Mercedes was there. I thought he came up with a great analogy when trying to explain some of the broad parameters of the relationship between the MGU-H, K and ICE to some other sailors. He said think of an hydroelectric plant and the effect of different water levels behind the dam turning the turbines and how to maximize output of the generator at all times. Also how much electrical output would you sacrifice for the ability to refill the dam to lengthen the overall duration of output.

One thing I learned about the MGU-H, K relationship is bigger is not better and many times less is more.
If you can make the opposition flinch, you have already won.

henry
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by henry » Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:12 am

gruntguru wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:27 am

.....

My point is this. Why have the 4 MJ and 2 MJ limits on K transfers then allow those limits to be breached by sending the energy - to the same place - by a different route? If this is happening and the FIA knows about it (and they would because it would be obvious in the data) they would ban it! It is a device/strategy designed purely to circumvent a rule. It isn't happening IMO.
If you look at the energy flow diagram the route from K to H is specifically allowed by the arrowhead on the line. So if you follow the lines and arrows the flow K -> H -> ES is envisioned in the rules and the mechanism proposed would be 100% legal.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:19 am

Wazari wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:36 pm
Some great stuff here. Unfortunately this is one area where I am definitely prohibited from speaking on specifics.

However, a few weeks ago, I attended a sailing symposium (that's a another story) and a fellow engineer from Mercedes was there. I thought he came up with a great analogy when trying to explain some of the broad parameters of the relationship between the MGU-H, K and ICE to some other sailors. He said think of an hydroelectric plant and the effect of different water levels behind the dam turning the turbines and how to maximize output of the generator at all times. Also how much electrical output would you sacrifice for the ability to refill the dam to lengthen the overall duration of output.

One thing I learned about the MGU-H, K relationship is bigger is not better and many times less is more.
Does this mean that MGU-H harvesting is an afterthought and more important is to focus on combustion? As that would be the damned water in your analogy?
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by gruntguru » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:47 am

Nonserviam85 wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:31 pm
gruntguru wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:40 am
My point is this. Why have the 4 MJ and 2 MJ limits on K transfers then allow those limits to be breached by sending the energy - to the same place - by a different route? If this is happening and the FIA knows about it (and they would because it would be obvious in the data) they would ban it! It is a device/strategy designed purely to circumvent a rule. It isn't happening IMO.
Why you say that? F1 is full of examples of following the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law...Unless someone proves or hints that a specific manufacturers gains a huge advantage compared to the others I don't believe it should be banned, especially if all manufacturers do the same.
Look at it this way.

1. The FIA creates a rule to limit K to ES transfers to <2MJ/lap and ES to K transfers to <4 MJ/lap.
2. Someone comes up with the bright idea of exceeding these limits by sending the energy to a temporary storage location (the H) and almost immediately forwarding it to the (illegal) destination.
3. The FIA can monitor all these energy transfers by looking at data so they know about it.

What would the FIA do? There are only two logical options
1. Ban the "bright idea" as being outside the spirit of Rule # xxx
2. Remove Rule # xxx as being irrelevant since everybody can work around it.
je suis charlie

Wazari
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Wazari » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:55 am

godlameroso wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:19 am

Does this mean that MGU-H harvesting is an afterthought and more important is to focus on combustion? As that would be the damned water in your analogy?
I wouldn't say afterthought but combustion(ICE efficiency) is no less important than MGU-H harvesting if not more. Dam-compressor size, water-exhaust energy
If you can make the opposition flinch, you have already won.

Talisman
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Talisman » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:19 am

gruntguru wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:47 am
Nonserviam85 wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:31 pm
gruntguru wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:40 am
My point is this. Why have the 4 MJ and 2 MJ limits on K transfers then allow those limits to be breached by sending the energy - to the same place - by a different route? If this is happening and the FIA knows about it (and they would because it would be obvious in the data) they would ban it! It is a device/strategy designed purely to circumvent a rule. It isn't happening IMO.
Why you say that? F1 is full of examples of following the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law...Unless someone proves or hints that a specific manufacturers gains a huge advantage compared to the others I don't believe it should be banned, especially if all manufacturers do the same.
Look at it this way.

1. The FIA creates a rule to limit K to ES transfers to <2MJ/lap and ES to K transfers to <4 MJ/lap.
2. Someone comes up with the bright idea of exceeding these limits by sending the energy to a temporary storage location (the H) and almost immediately forwarding it to the (illegal) destination.
3. The FIA can monitor all these energy transfers by looking at data so they know about it.

What would the FIA do? There are only two logical options
1. Ban the "bright idea" as being outside the spirit of Rule # xxx
2. Remove Rule # xxx as being irrelevant since everybody can work around it.
The Honda engineers in the article speculate that the regulations were written deliberately by the FIA to encourage this kind of lateral thinking with a view to pushing forward MGUH development as these systems are not currently used on roadcars.

Given that the existence of this system is now in the public domain I suspect that all manufacturers are certainly aware of its existence and that they probably all employ the technology. This is backed up by Honda being the furthest behind in terms of energy regeneration at the beginning of the system yet also already at the top end of the 2MJ per lap K to ES limit indicating that the others employed other techniques for transferring more energy than that to the ES. Or perhaps there are ways of bypassing the 2MJ limit not indicated in this article.

Either way given the detailed explanation by Honda not only of the existence of this system but how it works, I suspect the FIA will ban it ASAP if your interpretation is correct.

amho
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by amho » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:25 am

Wazari wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:36 pm
Some great stuff here. Unfortunately this is one area where I am definitely prohibited from speaking on specifics.

However, a few weeks ago, I attended a sailing symposium (that's a another story) and a fellow engineer from Mercedes was there. I thought he came up with a great analogy when trying to explain some of the broad parameters of the relationship between the MGU-H, K and ICE to some other sailors. He said think of an hydroelectric plant and the effect of different water levels behind the dam turning the turbines and how to maximize output of the generator at all times. Also how much electrical output would you sacrifice for the ability to refill the dam to lengthen the overall duration of output.

One thing I learned about the MGU-H, K relationship is bigger is not better and many times less is more.
In a dam when electricity output is higher than electricity demand the excess electricity is consumed to pump back the water in downstream of dam to upstream side of dam. this help for the time later that electricity demand is high...
There is no Might or Power except with Allah.

Craigy
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Craigy » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:07 am

gruntguru wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:47 am
Look at it this way.
1. The FIA creates a rule to limit K to ES transfers to <2MJ/lap and ES to K transfers to <4 MJ/lap.
2. Someone comes up with the bright idea of exceeding these limits by sending the energy to a temporary storage location (the H) and almost immediately forwarding it to the (illegal) destination.
3. The FIA can monitor all these energy transfers by looking at data so they know about it.

What would the FIA do? There are only two logical options
1. Ban the "bright idea" as being outside the spirit of Rule # xxx
2. Remove Rule # xxx as being irrelevant since everybody can work around it.
Or, logical option #3, they could just let the PU manufacturers get on with it within the rules as stated, which is what they have been doing for the last 3 years and have made no noises about changing until the 2021 PU formula.

Question:
If there was a real aim at not allowing this sort of energy flow, why is the K->H route even available?
H->K is obviously useful for self-sustaining mode, I get that. What's K->H for, if not this? Why is it bidirectional?
In other words, without flywheeling, in which situation do you want to spin up the speed of the compressor+turbine using power recovered from the K?

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Tommy Cookers » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:32 am

we should remember that the MGs will have by design and for various good reasons some fundamental limit of current
the MGU-K is by rule torque-limited to 200 Nm (by current limiting) so below c. 5700 crank rpm its power falls below 120 kW
it and its drive are less efficient (produce much more heat) at low rpm, best efficiency is at high rpm and lower current
and the H being subject only to design constraints can transfer more power at higher rpm

so there may be less energy available at partial ICE power than we would like to think
maybe why Honda show us K generation at full ICE power/rpm ie before the braking zone

the K rules mean that it's a constant torque machine till 5700 rpm, then a constant power/falling torque machine
the ICE is notionally (pre-map) a constant torque machine till 10500 rpm, then a constant power/falling torque machine
implying that inherent TC and ABS emulation effect from the K is larger at low rpm and particularly so at partial ICE power
varying K control modes could increase/disguise this ie give steady state/mapped behaviour hiding advantageous dynamic behaviour
ie maybe design to tolerate pole jumping at will in the K ?
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Singabule
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Singabule » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:18 pm

amho wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:25 am
Wazari wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:36 pm
Some great stuff here. Unfortunately this is one area where I am definitely prohibited from speaking on specifics.

However, a few weeks ago, I attended a sailing symposium (that's a another story) and a fellow engineer from Mercedes was there. I thought he came up with a great analogy when trying to explain some of the broad parameters of the relationship between the MGU-H, K and ICE to some other sailors. He said think of an hydroelectric plant and the effect of different water levels behind the dam turning the turbines and how to maximize output of the generator at all times. Also how much electrical output would you sacrifice for the ability to refill the dam to lengthen the overall duration of output.

One thing I learned about the MGU-H, K relationship is bigger is not better and many times less is more.
In a dam when electricity output is higher than electricity demand the excess electricity is consumed to pump back the water in downstream of dam to upstream side of dam. this help for the time later that electricity demand is high...
Bigger compressor, bigger exhaust energy. Smaller turbine, with big dam, longer the duration is. Bigger turbine, more capacity but lower the duration. Water recirculation is wasting more energy than using Smaller turbine instead, that means using mguh to directly powering K is a waste, because loss in recirculation. Using very efficient engine would more beneficial than using mguh and K relation because lower net power loss. However, sometime in the night, electrical need would be very high and you dont have enough electrical energy from the turbine (outright power from PU at corner exit). In summary, create a compressor not too big, mguh not too strong, but create most efficient PU and turbo. ES and K only to blast out of corner

Nonserviam85
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Nonserviam85 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:50 pm

gruntguru wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:47 am
Nonserviam85 wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:31 pm
gruntguru wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:40 am
My point is this. Why have the 4 MJ and 2 MJ limits on K transfers then allow those limits to be breached by sending the energy - to the same place - by a different route? If this is happening and the FIA knows about it (and they would because it would be obvious in the data) they would ban it! It is a device/strategy designed purely to circumvent a rule. It isn't happening IMO.
Why you say that? F1 is full of examples of following the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law...Unless someone proves or hints that a specific manufacturers gains a huge advantage compared to the others I don't believe it should be banned, especially if all manufacturers do the same.
Look at it this way.

1. The FIA creates a rule to limit K to ES transfers to <2MJ/lap and ES to K transfers to <4 MJ/lap.
2. Someone comes up with the bright idea of exceeding these limits by sending the energy to a temporary storage location (the H) and almost immediately forwarding it to the (illegal) destination.
3. The FIA can monitor all these energy transfers by looking at data so they know about it.

What would the FIA do? There are only two logical options
1. Ban the "bright idea" as being outside the spirit of Rule # xxx
2. Remove Rule # xxx as being irrelevant since everybody can work around it.
Regarding 2. someone can claim that since an intermediate legal destination exist, the whole philosophy is legal. Is there a possibility that FIA didn't anticipate this energy transfer being feasible or achievable when writing the rules? Or maybe this was FIA's intention when they allowed free transfer from/to MGU-H in order to advance the technology in this area?

FIA have the tendency to ban ideas (even legal ones) if someone gets a great advantage. If everyone is doing this without great advantage (as FIA can assess by the review of the data) why ban it especially if it promotes the advance in technology in the specific area?

wuzak
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by wuzak » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:53 pm

Singabule wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:18 pm
amho wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:25 am
Wazari wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:36 pm
Some great stuff here. Unfortunately this is one area where I am definitely prohibited from speaking on specifics.

However, a few weeks ago, I attended a sailing symposium (that's a another story) and a fellow engineer from Mercedes was there. I thought he came up with a great analogy when trying to explain some of the broad parameters of the relationship between the MGU-H, K and ICE to some other sailors. He said think of an hydroelectric plant and the effect of different water levels behind the dam turning the turbines and how to maximize output of the generator at all times. Also how much electrical output would you sacrifice for the ability to refill the dam to lengthen the overall duration of output.

One thing I learned about the MGU-H, K relationship is bigger is not better and many times less is more.
In a dam when electricity output is higher than electricity demand the excess electricity is consumed to pump back the water in downstream of dam to upstream side of dam. this help for the time later that electricity demand is high...
Bigger compressor, bigger exhaust energy. Smaller turbine, with big dam, longer the duration is. Bigger turbine, more capacity but lower the duration. Water recirculation is wasting more energy than using Smaller turbine instead, that means using mguh to directly powering K is a waste, because loss in recirculation. Using very efficient engine would more beneficial than using mguh and K relation because lower net power loss. However, sometime in the night, electrical need would be very high and you dont have enough electrical energy from the turbine (outright power from PU at corner exit). In summary, create a compressor not too big, mguh not too strong, but create most efficient PU and turbo. ES and K only to blast out of corner
In terms of hydro, you set your dam up with multiple turbines. And if generation is greater than demand you switch some off and/or control the flow rate through the turbines.

dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by dren » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:55 pm

Or you could look at it as how much electrical energy would you use to spool your compressor so there is no lag in getting the turbine ready for H generation. As TC stated, the output of the K is reduced at these lower RPM levels.
Honda!