Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
ME4ME
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by ME4ME » Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:39 pm

It says MGU-K 5000 rpm in one of the Honda images.

EDIT: Got that wrong. 50k rpm - as pointed out below.
Last edited by ME4ME on Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Tommy Cookers » Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:47 pm

that looks like direct drive - so very different from the Honda KERS and very different from the 125000 rpm MGU-H

so where is the K now ? (relative to the crankshaft)

dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by dren » Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:33 pm

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:47 pm
that looks like direct drive - so very different from the Honda KERS and very different from the 125000 rpm MGU-H

so where is the K now ? (relative to the crankshaft)
Low and just to the left when looking from the turbine side (rear of ICE). Looks to drive the crank through the block.
Honda!

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:18 pm

gruntguru wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:47 am
Nonserviam85 wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:31 pm
gruntguru wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:40 am
My point is this. Why have the 4 MJ and 2 MJ limits on K transfers then allow those limits to be breached by sending the energy - to the same place - by a different route? If this is happening and the FIA knows about it (and they would because it would be obvious in the data) they would ban it! It is a device/strategy designed purely to circumvent a rule. It isn't happening IMO.
Why you say that? F1 is full of examples of following the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law...Unless someone proves or hints that a specific manufacturers gains a huge advantage compared to the others I don't believe it should be banned, especially if all manufacturers do the same.
Look at it this way.

1. The FIA creates a rule to limit K to ES transfers to <2MJ/lap and ES to K transfers to <4 MJ/lap.
2. Someone comes up with the bright idea of exceeding these limits by sending the energy to a temporary storage location (the H) and almost immediately forwarding it to the (illegal) destination.
3. The FIA can monitor all these energy transfers by looking at data so they know about it.

What would the FIA do? There are only two logical options
1. Ban the "bright idea" as being outside the spirit of Rule # xxx
2. Remove Rule # xxx as being irrelevant since everybody can work around it.
Thing is.. FIA did this to themselves. Remember that diagram they released showing the legal energy flows?
Ha. Yeah.

The K to H to ES was on it! The engineers just captitized on FIA frogetting to lock the "mguh backdoor" the way i view it.


Image
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

Nonserviam85
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Nonserviam85 » Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:55 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:18 pm
gruntguru wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:47 am
Nonserviam85 wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:31 pm
Why you say that? F1 is full of examples of following the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law...Unless someone proves or hints that a specific manufacturers gains a huge advantage compared to the others I don't believe it should be banned, especially if all manufacturers do the same.
Look at it this way.

1. The FIA creates a rule to limit K to ES transfers to <2MJ/lap and ES to K transfers to <4 MJ/lap.
2. Someone comes up with the bright idea of exceeding these limits by sending the energy to a temporary storage location (the H) and almost immediately forwarding it to the (illegal) destination.
3. The FIA can monitor all these energy transfers by looking at data so they know about it.

What would the FIA do? There are only two logical options
1. Ban the "bright idea" as being outside the spirit of Rule # xxx
2. Remove Rule # xxx as being irrelevant since everybody can work around it.
Thing is.. FIA did this to themselves. Remember that diagram they released showing the legal energy flows?
Ha. Yeah.

The K to H to ES was on it! The engineers just captitized on FIA frogetting to lock the "mguh backdoor" the way i view it.


http://static.sportskeeda.com/wp-conten ... 24x606.jpg
That's exactly my point, it is not illegal according to this graph, and as we all expect FIA is already aware of this. I assume that possibly they were expecting it or they wanted to push towards this direction.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Tommy Cookers » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:17 pm

it's just the usual 21st century graphics - they never show what they should be showing

the letter of the law isn't to be found in the graphics

AJI
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by AJI » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:23 pm

Nonserviam85 wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:55 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:18 pm
Thing is.. FIA did this to themselves. Remember that diagram they released showing the legal energy flows?
Ha. Yeah.

The K to H to ES was on it! The engineers just captitized on FIA frogetting to lock the "mguh backdoor" the way i view it.
That's exactly my point, it is not illegal according to this graph, and as we all expect FIA is already aware of this. I assume that possibly they were expecting it or they wanted to push towards this direction.
Yeah wow… It's as plain as day when you see it on paper. '21st century graphics' aside, I must have looked at that flow diagram 5000 times in 2014, but the 2MJ K-ES was all I ever noticed.

AJI
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by AJI » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:33 pm

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:17 pm
it's just the usual 21st century graphics - they never show what they should be showing

the letter of the law isn't to be found in the graphics
i just gave the regs a quick scan.

"5.2.2 Energy flows, power and ES state of charge limits are defined in the energy flow diagram shown in Appendix 3 of these regulations."

That's it..?

Edit: I just cross referenced a few years. The only alteration is about charging the ES while in the pits during quali

roon
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by roon » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:27 pm

ME4ME wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:39 pm
It says MGU-K 5000 rpm in one of the Honda images.
That seems way too low. I checked the image and it seems to say 50k RPM which is more in line with what folks on this forum have speculated. I don't read Japanese characters so well but the convention seems to be, in this context, to use a 'ten-thousand' character with a multiplier before it, plus the remaining 'thousands' value after.

I believe this is the image you're referencing:

https://abload.de/img/honda4ffu02.jpg

The values then read as (substitude my '[x]' for the character in the image):
12[x]5000 = 125,000
1[x]5000 = 15,000
5[x] = 50,000
Last edited by roon on Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ArcticWolfie
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Location: the Netherlands

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by ArcticWolfie » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:37 pm

roon wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:27 pm
ME4ME wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:39 pm
It says MGU-K 5000 rpm in one of the Honda images.
That seems way too low. I checked the image and it seems to say 50k RPM which is more in line with what folks on this forum have speculated. I don't read Japanese characters so well but the convention seems to be, in this context, to use a 'ten-thousand' character with a multiplier before it, plus the remaining 'thousands' value after.

I believe this is the image you're referencing:

https://abload.de/img/honda4ffu02.jpg

The values then read as (substitude my '[x]' for the character in the image):
12[x]5000 = 125,000
5[x] = 5,000
エンジン 1万5000rpm = Engine 15.000 rpm
MGU-K 5万 = 50.000 rpm
MGU-H 12万5000 = 125.000 rpm

万 (man) = 10.000

etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by etusch » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:10 am

Unlike the ICEs direct drive electric motors powered cars have lesser range on hightways. This is because they makes speed by rev. Electric motor has same torque from start to end. All these are makes high rev unnecessary I think. But this is only my thoughts and I wonder how they operate mgu-k. Are they using it with same rev with ICE power support before the clutch or it works with gearbox but just assembled to the ICE ?

Hino
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Hino » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:14 pm

Sorry for getting these up late, it took a lot longer than planned. I'm sure there will be some translation errors and maybe Wazarisan can point those out. Enjoy.

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Blaze1
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Blaze1 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:41 pm

Craigy wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:18 am
Blaze1 wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:45 am
Craigy wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:33 pm
The 40 pulses of K spinning up the H would be interleaved with 40 pulses of K direct to ES, so the net result at the K is a constant 120kW of retardation, not pulsed at all.
Hi Craigy

I don't understand why the K would be used to spin up the H?
There's an energy limit of 2MJ on the direct connection from K->ES per lap per FIA F1 technical regulations.
From ES->K, the equivalent limit is 4MJ, so it's not a symmetrical limitation in the regulations.
If you want to deploy 4MJ (or more) of energy per lap out of the K, then you need a way to harvest it.

There's no regulated limit on the energy per lap the K can send to the H, and no regulated limit per lap on the energy the H can send to the ES.

Consequently, you can elect to send >2MJ from the K to the ES, so long as the H is used as a go-between for any amount over 2MJ per lap.

Since the H can't both speed up (receiving energy from the K) and spin down (sending energy to the ES) at the same time, you would switch between sending energy K->H then stopping that, and starting to discharge energy H->ES, and back to K->H again, and so on, many times per second.

The switching would speed up and slow down the H only a small amount each time it is spun up by the energy from the K or spun down by sending energy to the ES, keeping it (and all the rest of the turbo/compressor) in -or very close to- the range the ICE needs.

Because the H is spending some of its time sending energy to the ES, the K can be used during that time to send energy directly to the ES, inside the 2MJ "direct" route regulated amount. Thus the K can actually be harvesting all the time, even when the H is busy dumping energy into the ES.

The K is switching from sending energy direct to the ES, then to the H, then to the ES, then to the H, about 40 times per second in the Honda docs.
All this energy ultimately gets into the ES, but the 2MJ limit only applies to direct K->ES transfers.

It's a way to get 4MJ or more into the ES per lap, without relying on the MGU-H's other job, which is compounding energy out of exhaust gases.
Thanks for the explanation. For some reason I wasn't taking your previous descriptions of the MGU-H as a flywheel literally.

Blaze1
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Blaze1 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:53 pm

Hino wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:14 pm
Sorry for getting these up late, it took a lot longer than planned. I'm sure there will be some translation errors and maybe Wazarisan can point those out. Enjoy.
Fantastic information, thank you Hino. =D>

When was the last time an engine manufacturer was so open about the engine/PU?
Last edited by Blaze1 on Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Craigy
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Craigy » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:21 pm

Blaze1 wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:53 pm
Hino wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:14 pm
Sorry for getting these up late, it took a lot longer than planned. I'm sure there will be some translation errors and maybe Wazarisan can point those out. Enjoy.
Fantastic information, thank you Hino. =D>

When was the last time and engine manufacturer was so open about the engine/PU?
With a recent PU? Never.

BMW wrote about their V10 and V8 engines about 8 years after they had withdrawn from the sport, and even then, they didn't provide the sort of open telemetry Honda have.

Honda deserve massive applause for their approach to releasing this, it's wonderful.