Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
dren
243
User avatar
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:14 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by dren » Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:39 pm

It says they regen around 70kw with the MGUH. It also says they ran the compressor with the H for max power often in 2016 but didn't have enough in the ES in 2017 to do it due to motoring the K more. The extra harvest helped to use eboost again. Thanks for the translation!!!
Honda!

amho
3
User avatar
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:15 pm
Location: Iran

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by amho » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:40 pm

Hino wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:14 pm
Sorry for getting these up late, it took a lot longer than planned. I'm sure there will be some translation errors and maybe Wazarisan can point those out. Enjoy.

https://i.imgur.com/zdCrIvn.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RIsna31.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/on0uqSI.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/caIsfi9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MUm5lPx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ZthjOLz.jpg]
https://i.imgur.com/e39J138.jpg
Special thanks to Mr.hino +1
Please someone explain about relation between these elements:( Mgu-h bearing failure, oil, intake suction effect on oil) as I can't understand clearly what is written in page 15 ?!
There is no Might or Power except with Allah.

ncassi22
35
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:26 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by ncassi22 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:32 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:00 pm
My Apologies to Hino! I was viewing it on my phone before bed after drinking some stuff that makes everything look Japanese! Yes.. great work indeed.
Hahaha I'll have what you're having pls.

I posted a concept of an integrating the pre-chamber and injector a few pages back (p832). The article clarifies nicely why this would beneficial_017). You do not sacrifice piston crown shape to feed/block off the chamber, so you can focus on a spray pattern/intake/crown shape that optimises the homogeneity of the mixture in the main chamber. Adding to this you'd also have better control over orifice size and clearance over the life of the engine. If it'd be beneficial it'd also allow the pre-chamber to be operated semi independently from the crank angle, giving more options for ignition timing. (It would still be influenced by air flowing into the pre-chamber via the main one. - hence semi autonomous).
Last edited by ncassi22 on Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Nonserviam85
8
Joined: Fri May 17, 2013 10:21 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Nonserviam85 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:54 pm

Hino wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:14 pm
Sorry for getting these up late, it took a lot longer than planned. I'm sure there will be some translation errors and maybe Wazarisan can point those out. Enjoy.

https://i.imgur.com/zdCrIvn.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RIsna31.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/on0uqSI.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/caIsfi9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MUm5lPx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ZthjOLz.jpg]
https://i.imgur.com/e39J138.jpg
Honda Engineers also share the view tha the free development of the MGU-H was intentionally allowed by FIA to assist development and mass production for commercial vehicles!

godlameroso
263
User avatar
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:50 am

If you think about it, it makes sense, all development isn't straight forward. Yes Honda has a lot of experience with MGU-K's as they have them in mass produced cars, but there aren't any mass produced MGU-H's, and some people are of the opinion that it wouldn't be feasible even with economies of scale.This formula forces you to develop single injectors that do the job of two, and have super complex electronic equipment that can orchestrate these elaborate energy management strategies, and cutting edge batteries. On top of this there's the added requirement of boost control with the compressor pop off valve, turbine wastegates, MGU-H, MGU-K, and the ICE all playing a part.

And I suppose they're just confirming what we've been saying all along, at the heart of everything is the combustion process, the better you do that, the better everything else becomes. The crutch being that in order for the combustion process to get better, everything else that supports this process also has to improve as well. So there is unavoidable tedium and trial and error, and sometimes things you think are small gains turn out to be big, and things you banked on being big turn out to be small, until other small things are done to compliment it.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

amho
3
User avatar
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:15 pm
Location: Iran

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by amho » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:16 am

dren wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:39 pm
It says they regen around 70kw with the MGUH. It also says they ran the compressor with the H for max power often in 2016 but didn't have enough in the ES in 2017 to do it due to motoring the K more. The extra harvest helped to use eboost again. Thanks for the translation!!!
I think it's a good decision to use Es energy primerily for powering mgu-k, it is more efficient than using it for mgu-h.
Efficiency of mgu-k in motor mode should be around 95% while in mgu-h motor mode efficiency is lower ( turbine eff. x Ice eff.).
By powering mgu-k in early acceleration it can also make up for mgu-h absence as better early acceleration puts turbine in it's effective range earlier.
Last edited by amho on Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is no Might or Power except with Allah.

gruntguru
408
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:43 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by gruntguru » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:29 am

Craigy wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:07 am
Question:
If there was a real aim at not allowing this sort of energy flow, why is the K->H route even available?
H->K is obviously useful for self-sustaining mode, I get that. What's K->H for, if not this? Why is it bidirectional?
In other words, without flywheeling, in which situation do you want to spin up the speed of the compressor+turbine using power recovered from the K?
Pretty obvious answer. Car is under brakes or part throttle through a corner and the turbo speed needs to be maintained for anti-lag purposes. If it can be maintained direct from the K there are a number of benefits eg:
- the inefficiencies of charging/discharging the ES are avoided
- the energy does not contribute to the K->ES limit

The suggestion that the FIA made the per-lap limits on energy flow to/from the K and allowed unlimited transfers K<->H to encourage teams to develop the turbo as a short-term accumulator is absurd. There is no benefit to either race-car or road-car technology to create such a system when a length of copper wire will do!
je suis charlie

gruntguru
408
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:43 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by gruntguru » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:40 am

Nonserviam85 wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:50 pm
gruntguru wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:47 am
Nonserviam85 wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:31 pm
Why you say that? F1 is full of examples of following the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law...Unless someone proves or hints that a specific manufacturers gains a huge advantage compared to the others I don't believe it should be banned, especially if all manufacturers do the same.
Look at it this way.

1. The FIA creates a rule to limit K to ES transfers to <2MJ/lap and ES to K transfers to <4 MJ/lap.
2. Someone comes up with the bright idea of exceeding these limits by sending the energy to a temporary storage location (the H) and almost immediately forwarding it to the (illegal) destination.
3. The FIA can monitor all these energy transfers by looking at data so they know about it.

What would the FIA do? There are only two logical options
1. Ban the "bright idea" as being outside the spirit of Rule # xxx
2. Remove Rule # xxx as being irrelevant since everybody can work around it.
Regarding 2. someone can claim that since an intermediate legal destination exist, the whole philosophy is legal. Is there a possibility that FIA didn't anticipate this energy transfer being feasible or achievable when writing the rules? Or maybe this was FIA's intention when they allowed free transfer from/to MGU-H in order to advance the technology in this area?
Others might claim that the intermediate destination is also an additional energy store which would make it illegal. Significant amounts of energy are being stored - although very short term the amount of energy being stored and released per-lap is significant.

Regarding this being FIA's intention - see my previous post.
je suis charlie

gruntguru
408
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:43 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by gruntguru » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:50 am

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:18 pm
Thing is.. FIA did this to themselves. Remember that diagram they released showing the legal energy flows?
The K to H to ES was on it! The engineers just captitized on FIA frogetting to lock the "mguh backdoor" the way i view it.

http://static.sportskeeda.com/wp-conten ... 24x606.jpg
Disagree. There is a K<->H path and there is a H<->ES path. There are perfectly good reasons for each of these - at different times on the track. The FIA did not intend this to become an unlimited K<->ES transfer path. There is no point in encouraging such a thing as opposed to simply adding an unlimited K<->ES path to the diagram.
je suis charlie

gruntguru
408
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:43 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by gruntguru » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:10 am

Hino wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:14 pm
Sorry for getting these up late, it took a lot longer than planned. I'm sure there will be some translation errors and maybe Wazarisan can point those out. Enjoy.
https://i.imgur.com/zdCrIvn.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RIsna31.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/on0uqSI.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/caIsfi9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MUm5lPx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ZthjOLz.jpg]
https://i.imgur.com/e39J138.jpg
Wonderful effort Hino - I would give you more than one up-vote if I could. Unfortunately your translation shows I was wrong - they are indeed using the H as an energy store - storing and releasing 20 - 40 times per second.

Ridiculous. Sigh!
je suis charlie

AJI
33
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:08 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by AJI » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:12 am

gruntguru wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:10 am
...Unfortunately your translation shows I was wrong - they are indeed using the H as an energy store - storing and releasing 20 - 40 times per second.

Ridiculous. Sigh!
Okay, so now that the Honda method is clear and everyone can agree that Craigy's theory has substance, can we hypothesize that the other 3 are following a similar route and are doing it better, or alternatively that the other 3 have read the article and are laughing their collective asses off, what with Honda being the worst performing PU and all...

I really don't mean any disrespect, I'm just trying to understand if this is what they're all doing.

Nonserviam85
8
Joined: Fri May 17, 2013 10:21 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Nonserviam85 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:54 am

AJI wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:12 am
gruntguru wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:10 am
...Unfortunately your translation shows I was wrong - they are indeed using the H as an energy store - storing and releasing 20 - 40 times per second.

Ridiculous. Sigh!
Okay, so now that the Honda method is clear and everyone can agree that Craigy's theory has substance, can we hypothesize that the other 3 are following a similar route and are doing it better, or alternatively that the other 3 have read the article and are laughing their collective asses off, what with Honda being the worst performing PU and all...

I really don't mean any disrespect, I'm just trying to understand if this is what they're all doing.
Problem is we will never know from the other manufacturers! The gain however can be significant so I believe the others are doing it even better...

AJI
33
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:08 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by AJI » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:56 am

Nonserviam85 wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:54 am
...The gain however can be significant so I believe the others are doing it even better...
The real question is: is the gain significant, or is it a dead end and just a red herring?
Why would Honda publish that info?

Singabule
17
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:47 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Singabule » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:11 pm

AJI wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:56 am
Nonserviam85 wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:54 am
...The gain however can be significant so I believe the others are doing it even better...
The real question is: is the gain significant, or is it a dead end and just a red herring?
Why would Honda publish that info?
The benefit is spectacular in road vehicle. Efficiency would at its best on WOT, and yet the ES technology is still lagged behind and very expensive indeed. In the stop and go City trafic, mguh with accumulator-like capability would solve battery problem cheaper than develop next level battery. It also confirm that the real difference of performance is within ICE and deployment mapping. Honda got it worse than other because they only have one team to confirm it and gather data. End of discussion

dren
243
User avatar
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:14 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by dren » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:24 pm

None of this is road relevant.

In a road car, you wouldn't pulse an MG with another MG before sending energy to an ES; you'd send it straight to the ES.
Honda!