Honda Power Unit

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by etusch » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:10 am

Unlike the ICEs direct drive electric motors powered cars have lesser range on hightways. This is because they makes speed by rev. Electric motor has same torque from start to end. All these are makes high rev unnecessary I think. But this is only my thoughts and I wonder how they operate mgu-k. Are they using it with same rev with ICE power support before the clutch or it works with gearbox but just assembled to the ICE ?

Hino
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Hino » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:14 pm

Sorry for getting these up late, it took a lot longer than planned. I'm sure there will be some translation errors and maybe Wazarisan can point those out. Enjoy.

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Blaze1
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Blaze1 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:41 pm

Craigy wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:18 am
Blaze1 wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:45 am
Craigy wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:33 pm
The 40 pulses of K spinning up the H would be interleaved with 40 pulses of K direct to ES, so the net result at the K is a constant 120kW of retardation, not pulsed at all.
Hi Craigy

I don't understand why the K would be used to spin up the H?
There's an energy limit of 2MJ on the direct connection from K->ES per lap per FIA F1 technical regulations.
From ES->K, the equivalent limit is 4MJ, so it's not a symmetrical limitation in the regulations.
If you want to deploy 4MJ (or more) of energy per lap out of the K, then you need a way to harvest it.

There's no regulated limit on the energy per lap the K can send to the H, and no regulated limit per lap on the energy the H can send to the ES.

Consequently, you can elect to send >2MJ from the K to the ES, so long as the H is used as a go-between for any amount over 2MJ per lap.

Since the H can't both speed up (receiving energy from the K) and spin down (sending energy to the ES) at the same time, you would switch between sending energy K->H then stopping that, and starting to discharge energy H->ES, and back to K->H again, and so on, many times per second.

The switching would speed up and slow down the H only a small amount each time it is spun up by the energy from the K or spun down by sending energy to the ES, keeping it (and all the rest of the turbo/compressor) in -or very close to- the range the ICE needs.

Because the H is spending some of its time sending energy to the ES, the K can be used during that time to send energy directly to the ES, inside the 2MJ "direct" route regulated amount. Thus the K can actually be harvesting all the time, even when the H is busy dumping energy into the ES.

The K is switching from sending energy direct to the ES, then to the H, then to the ES, then to the H, about 40 times per second in the Honda docs.
All this energy ultimately gets into the ES, but the 2MJ limit only applies to direct K->ES transfers.

It's a way to get 4MJ or more into the ES per lap, without relying on the MGU-H's other job, which is compounding energy out of exhaust gases.
Thanks for the explanation. For some reason I wasn't taking your previous descriptions of the MGU-H as a flywheel literally.

Blaze1
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Blaze1 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:53 pm

Hino wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:14 pm
Sorry for getting these up late, it took a lot longer than planned. I'm sure there will be some translation errors and maybe Wazarisan can point those out. Enjoy.
Fantastic information, thank you Hino. =D>

When was the last time an engine manufacturer was so open about the engine/PU?
Last edited by Blaze1 on Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

draw73
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by draw73 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:17 pm




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:12 pm

Hino wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:14 pm
Sorry for getting these up late, it took a lot longer than planned. I'm sure there will be some translation errors and maybe Wazarisan can point those out. Enjoy.

https://i.imgur.com/zdCrIvn.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RIsna31.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/on0uqSI.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/caIsfi9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MUm5lPx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ZthjOLz.jpg]
https://i.imgur.com/e39J138.jpg
You are very late! Same images posted on page 832 or thereabouts.
"Raindrops .. drop top!"

Craigy
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Craigy » Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:06 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:12 pm
Hino wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:14 pm
Sorry for getting these up late, it took a lot longer than planned. I'm sure there will be some translation errors and maybe Wazarisan can point those out. Enjoy.

https://i.imgur.com/zdCrIvn.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RIsna31.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/on0uqSI.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/caIsfi9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MUm5lPx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ZthjOLz.jpg]
https://i.imgur.com/e39J138.jpg
You are very late! Same images posted on page 832 or thereabouts.
The ones on page 832 are all in Japanese.
Aren't these new images the same ones but translated from Japanese to English?

Edited to add: yes they are.
Hino - thank you for putting so much work into translating this article into English for us. It is most appreciated!
Last edited by Craigy on Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Craigy
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Craigy » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:21 pm

Blaze1 wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:53 pm
Hino wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:14 pm
Sorry for getting these up late, it took a lot longer than planned. I'm sure there will be some translation errors and maybe Wazarisan can point those out. Enjoy.
Fantastic information, thank you Hino. =D>

When was the last time and engine manufacturer was so open about the engine/PU?
With a recent PU? Never.

BMW wrote about their V10 and V8 engines about 8 years after they had withdrawn from the sport, and even then, they didn't provide the sort of open telemetry Honda have.

Honda deserve massive applause for their approach to releasing this, it's wonderful.

bigblue
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by bigblue » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:22 pm

Umm think Hino posted previously (s)he was going to try to translate the Japanese originals, so here they are (after a slight delay).

dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by dren » Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:39 pm

It says they regen around 70kw with the MGUH. It also says they ran the compressor with the H for max power often in 2016 but didn't have enough in the ES in 2017 to do it due to motoring the K more. The extra harvest helped to use eboost again. Thanks for the translation!!!
Honda!

amho
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by amho » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:40 pm

Hino wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:14 pm
Sorry for getting these up late, it took a lot longer than planned. I'm sure there will be some translation errors and maybe Wazarisan can point those out. Enjoy.

https://i.imgur.com/zdCrIvn.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RIsna31.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/on0uqSI.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/caIsfi9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MUm5lPx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ZthjOLz.jpg]
https://i.imgur.com/e39J138.jpg
Special thanks to Mr.hino +1
Please someone explain about relation between these elements:( Mgu-h bearing failure, oil, intake suction effect on oil) as I can't understand clearly what is written in page 15 ?!

Nonserviam85
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Nonserviam85 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:52 pm

Hino wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:14 pm
Sorry for getting these up late, it took a lot longer than planned. I'm sure there will be some translation errors and maybe Wazarisan can point those out. Enjoy.

https://i.imgur.com/zdCrIvn.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RIsna31.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/on0uqSI.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/caIsfi9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MUm5lPx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ZthjOLz.jpg]
https://i.imgur.com/e39J138.jpg
Amazing job! =D> =D>

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:00 pm

Craigy wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:06 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:12 pm
Hino wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:14 pm
Sorry for getting these up late, it took a lot longer than planned. I'm sure there will be some translation errors and maybe Wazarisan can point those out. Enjoy.

https://i.imgur.com/zdCrIvn.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RIsna31.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/on0uqSI.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/caIsfi9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MUm5lPx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ZthjOLz.jpg]
https://i.imgur.com/e39J138.jpg
You are very late! Same images posted on page 832 or thereabouts.
The ones on page 832 are all in Japanese.
Aren't these new images the same ones but translated from Japanese to English?

Edited to add: yes they are.
Hino - thank you for putting so much work into translating this article into English for us. It is most appreciated!
My Apologies to Hino! I was viewing it on my phone before bed after drinking some stuff that makes everything look Japanese! Yes.. great work indeed.
"Raindrops .. drop top!"

ncassi22
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by ncassi22 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:32 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:00 pm
My Apologies to Hino! I was viewing it on my phone before bed after drinking some stuff that makes everything look Japanese! Yes.. great work indeed.
Hahaha I'll have what you're having pls.

I posted a concept of an integrating the pre-chamber and injector a few pages back (p832). The article clarifies nicely why this would beneficial_017). You do not sacrifice piston crown shape to feed/block off the chamber, so you can focus on a spray pattern/intake/crown shape that optimises the homogeneity of the mixture in the main chamber. Adding to this you'd also have better control over orifice size and clearance over the life of the engine. If it'd be beneficial it'd also allow the pre-chamber to be operated semi independently from the crank angle, giving more options for ignition timing. (It would still be influenced by air flowing into the pre-chamber via the main one. - hence semi autonomous).
Last edited by ncassi22 on Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Nonserviam85
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Joined: Fri May 17, 2013 10:21 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Nonserviam85 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:54 pm

Hino wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:14 pm
Sorry for getting these up late, it took a lot longer than planned. I'm sure there will be some translation errors and maybe Wazarisan can point those out. Enjoy.

https://i.imgur.com/zdCrIvn.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RIsna31.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/on0uqSI.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/caIsfi9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MUm5lPx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ZthjOLz.jpg]
https://i.imgur.com/e39J138.jpg
Honda Engineers also share the view tha the free development of the MGU-H was intentionally allowed by FIA to assist development and mass production for commercial vehicles!