Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by etusch » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:10 am

Unlike the ICEs direct drive electric motors powered cars have lesser range on hightways. This is because they makes speed by rev. Electric motor has same torque from start to end. All these are makes high rev unnecessary I think. But this is only my thoughts and I wonder how they operate mgu-k. Are they using it with same rev with ICE power support before the clutch or it works with gearbox but just assembled to the ICE ?

Hino
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Hino » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:14 pm

Sorry for getting these up late, it took a lot longer than planned. I'm sure there will be some translation errors and maybe Wazarisan can point those out. Enjoy.

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Blaze1
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Blaze1 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:41 pm

Craigy wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:18 am
Blaze1 wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:45 am
Craigy wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:33 pm
The 40 pulses of K spinning up the H would be interleaved with 40 pulses of K direct to ES, so the net result at the K is a constant 120kW of retardation, not pulsed at all.
Hi Craigy

I don't understand why the K would be used to spin up the H?
There's an energy limit of 2MJ on the direct connection from K->ES per lap per FIA F1 technical regulations.
From ES->K, the equivalent limit is 4MJ, so it's not a symmetrical limitation in the regulations.
If you want to deploy 4MJ (or more) of energy per lap out of the K, then you need a way to harvest it.

There's no regulated limit on the energy per lap the K can send to the H, and no regulated limit per lap on the energy the H can send to the ES.

Consequently, you can elect to send >2MJ from the K to the ES, so long as the H is used as a go-between for any amount over 2MJ per lap.

Since the H can't both speed up (receiving energy from the K) and spin down (sending energy to the ES) at the same time, you would switch between sending energy K->H then stopping that, and starting to discharge energy H->ES, and back to K->H again, and so on, many times per second.

The switching would speed up and slow down the H only a small amount each time it is spun up by the energy from the K or spun down by sending energy to the ES, keeping it (and all the rest of the turbo/compressor) in -or very close to- the range the ICE needs.

Because the H is spending some of its time sending energy to the ES, the K can be used during that time to send energy directly to the ES, inside the 2MJ "direct" route regulated amount. Thus the K can actually be harvesting all the time, even when the H is busy dumping energy into the ES.

The K is switching from sending energy direct to the ES, then to the H, then to the ES, then to the H, about 40 times per second in the Honda docs.
All this energy ultimately gets into the ES, but the 2MJ limit only applies to direct K->ES transfers.

It's a way to get 4MJ or more into the ES per lap, without relying on the MGU-H's other job, which is compounding energy out of exhaust gases.
Thanks for the explanation. For some reason I wasn't taking your previous descriptions of the MGU-H as a flywheel literally.

Blaze1
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Blaze1 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:53 pm

Hino wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:14 pm
Sorry for getting these up late, it took a lot longer than planned. I'm sure there will be some translation errors and maybe Wazarisan can point those out. Enjoy.
Fantastic information, thank you Hino. =D>

When was the last time an engine manufacturer was so open about the engine/PU?
Last edited by Blaze1 on Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Craigy
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Craigy » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:21 pm

Blaze1 wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:53 pm
Hino wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:14 pm
Sorry for getting these up late, it took a lot longer than planned. I'm sure there will be some translation errors and maybe Wazarisan can point those out. Enjoy.
Fantastic information, thank you Hino. =D>

When was the last time and engine manufacturer was so open about the engine/PU?
With a recent PU? Never.

BMW wrote about their V10 and V8 engines about 8 years after they had withdrawn from the sport, and even then, they didn't provide the sort of open telemetry Honda have.

Honda deserve massive applause for their approach to releasing this, it's wonderful.

dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by dren » Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:39 pm

It says they regen around 70kw with the MGUH. It also says they ran the compressor with the H for max power often in 2016 but didn't have enough in the ES in 2017 to do it due to motoring the K more. The extra harvest helped to use eboost again. Thanks for the translation!!!
Honda!

amho
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by amho » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:40 pm

Hino wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:14 pm
Sorry for getting these up late, it took a lot longer than planned. I'm sure there will be some translation errors and maybe Wazarisan can point those out. Enjoy.

https://i.imgur.com/zdCrIvn.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RIsna31.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/on0uqSI.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/caIsfi9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MUm5lPx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ZthjOLz.jpg]
https://i.imgur.com/e39J138.jpg
Special thanks to Mr.hino +1
Please someone explain about relation between these elements:( Mgu-h bearing failure, oil, intake suction effect on oil) as I can't understand clearly what is written in page 15 ?!
There is no Might or Power except with Allah.

ncassi22
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by ncassi22 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:32 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:00 pm
My Apologies to Hino! I was viewing it on my phone before bed after drinking some stuff that makes everything look Japanese! Yes.. great work indeed.
Hahaha I'll have what you're having pls.

I posted a concept of an integrating the pre-chamber and injector a few pages back (p832). The article clarifies nicely why this would beneficial_017). You do not sacrifice piston crown shape to feed/block off the chamber, so you can focus on a spray pattern/intake/crown shape that optimises the homogeneity of the mixture in the main chamber. Adding to this you'd also have better control over orifice size and clearance over the life of the engine. If it'd be beneficial it'd also allow the pre-chamber to be operated semi independently from the crank angle, giving more options for ignition timing. (It would still be influenced by air flowing into the pre-chamber via the main one. - hence semi autonomous).
Last edited by ncassi22 on Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Nonserviam85
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Nonserviam85 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:54 pm

Hino wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:14 pm
Sorry for getting these up late, it took a lot longer than planned. I'm sure there will be some translation errors and maybe Wazarisan can point those out. Enjoy.

https://i.imgur.com/zdCrIvn.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RIsna31.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/on0uqSI.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/caIsfi9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MUm5lPx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ZthjOLz.jpg]
https://i.imgur.com/e39J138.jpg
Honda Engineers also share the view tha the free development of the MGU-H was intentionally allowed by FIA to assist development and mass production for commercial vehicles!

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:50 am

If you think about it, it makes sense, all development isn't straight forward. Yes Honda has a lot of experience with MGU-K's as they have them in mass produced cars, but there aren't any mass produced MGU-H's, and some people are of the opinion that it wouldn't be feasible even with economies of scale.This formula forces you to develop single injectors that do the job of two, and have super complex electronic equipment that can orchestrate these elaborate energy management strategies, and cutting edge batteries. On top of this there's the added requirement of boost control with the compressor pop off valve, turbine wastegates, MGU-H, MGU-K, and the ICE all playing a part.

And I suppose they're just confirming what we've been saying all along, at the heart of everything is the combustion process, the better you do that, the better everything else becomes. The crutch being that in order for the combustion process to get better, everything else that supports this process also has to improve as well. So there is unavoidable tedium and trial and error, and sometimes things you think are small gains turn out to be big, and things you banked on being big turn out to be small, until other small things are done to compliment it.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

amho
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by amho » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:16 am

dren wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:39 pm
It says they regen around 70kw with the MGUH. It also says they ran the compressor with the H for max power often in 2016 but didn't have enough in the ES in 2017 to do it due to motoring the K more. The extra harvest helped to use eboost again. Thanks for the translation!!!
I think it's a good decision to use Es energy primerily for powering mgu-k, it is more efficient than using it for mgu-h.
Efficiency of mgu-k in motor mode should be around 95% while in mgu-h motor mode efficiency is lower ( turbine eff. x Ice eff.).
By powering mgu-k in early acceleration it can also make up for mgu-h absence as better early acceleration puts turbine in it's effective range earlier.
Last edited by amho on Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is no Might or Power except with Allah.

gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by gruntguru » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:29 am

Craigy wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:07 am
Question:
If there was a real aim at not allowing this sort of energy flow, why is the K->H route even available?
H->K is obviously useful for self-sustaining mode, I get that. What's K->H for, if not this? Why is it bidirectional?
In other words, without flywheeling, in which situation do you want to spin up the speed of the compressor+turbine using power recovered from the K?
Pretty obvious answer. Car is under brakes or part throttle through a corner and the turbo speed needs to be maintained for anti-lag purposes. If it can be maintained direct from the K there are a number of benefits eg:
- the inefficiencies of charging/discharging the ES are avoided
- the energy does not contribute to the K->ES limit

The suggestion that the FIA made the per-lap limits on energy flow to/from the K and allowed unlimited transfers K<->H to encourage teams to develop the turbo as a short-term accumulator is absurd. There is no benefit to either race-car or road-car technology to create such a system when a length of copper wire will do!
je suis charlie

gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by gruntguru » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:40 am

Nonserviam85 wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:50 pm
gruntguru wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:47 am
Nonserviam85 wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:31 pm
Why you say that? F1 is full of examples of following the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law...Unless someone proves or hints that a specific manufacturers gains a huge advantage compared to the others I don't believe it should be banned, especially if all manufacturers do the same.
Look at it this way.

1. The FIA creates a rule to limit K to ES transfers to <2MJ/lap and ES to K transfers to <4 MJ/lap.
2. Someone comes up with the bright idea of exceeding these limits by sending the energy to a temporary storage location (the H) and almost immediately forwarding it to the (illegal) destination.
3. The FIA can monitor all these energy transfers by looking at data so they know about it.

What would the FIA do? There are only two logical options
1. Ban the "bright idea" as being outside the spirit of Rule # xxx
2. Remove Rule # xxx as being irrelevant since everybody can work around it.
Regarding 2. someone can claim that since an intermediate legal destination exist, the whole philosophy is legal. Is there a possibility that FIA didn't anticipate this energy transfer being feasible or achievable when writing the rules? Or maybe this was FIA's intention when they allowed free transfer from/to MGU-H in order to advance the technology in this area?
Others might claim that the intermediate destination is also an additional energy store which would make it illegal. Significant amounts of energy are being stored - although very short term the amount of energy being stored and released per-lap is significant.

Regarding this being FIA's intention - see my previous post.
je suis charlie

gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by gruntguru » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:50 am

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:18 pm
Thing is.. FIA did this to themselves. Remember that diagram they released showing the legal energy flows?
The K to H to ES was on it! The engineers just captitized on FIA frogetting to lock the "mguh backdoor" the way i view it.

http://static.sportskeeda.com/wp-conten ... 24x606.jpg
Disagree. There is a K<->H path and there is a H<->ES path. There are perfectly good reasons for each of these - at different times on the track. The FIA did not intend this to become an unlimited K<->ES transfer path. There is no point in encouraging such a thing as opposed to simply adding an unlimited K<->ES path to the diagram.
je suis charlie

gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by gruntguru » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:10 am

Hino wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:14 pm
Sorry for getting these up late, it took a lot longer than planned. I'm sure there will be some translation errors and maybe Wazarisan can point those out. Enjoy.
https://i.imgur.com/zdCrIvn.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RIsna31.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/on0uqSI.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/caIsfi9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MUm5lPx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ZthjOLz.jpg]
https://i.imgur.com/e39J138.jpg
Wonderful effort Hino - I would give you more than one up-vote if I could. Unfortunately your translation shows I was wrong - they are indeed using the H as an energy store - storing and releasing 20 - 40 times per second.

Ridiculous. Sigh!
je suis charlie