Thanks for the explanation. For some reason I wasn't taking your previous descriptions of the MGU-H as a flywheel literally.Craigy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:18 amThere's an energy limit of 2MJ on the direct connection from K->ES per lap per FIA F1 technical regulations.Blaze1 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:45 amHi Craigy
I don't understand why the K would be used to spin up the H?
From ES->K, the equivalent limit is 4MJ, so it's not a symmetrical limitation in the regulations.
If you want to deploy 4MJ (or more) of energy per lap out of the K, then you need a way to harvest it.
There's no regulated limit on the energy per lap the K can send to the H, and no regulated limit per lap on the energy the H can send to the ES.
Consequently, you can elect to send >2MJ from the K to the ES, so long as the H is used as a go-between for any amount over 2MJ per lap.
Since the H can't both speed up (receiving energy from the K) and spin down (sending energy to the ES) at the same time, you would switch between sending energy K->H then stopping that, and starting to discharge energy H->ES, and back to K->H again, and so on, many times per second.
The switching would speed up and slow down the H only a small amount each time it is spun up by the energy from the K or spun down by sending energy to the ES, keeping it (and all the rest of the turbo/compressor) in -or very close to- the range the ICE needs.
Because the H is spending some of its time sending energy to the ES, the K can be used during that time to send energy directly to the ES, inside the 2MJ "direct" route regulated amount. Thus the K can actually be harvesting all the time, even when the H is busy dumping energy into the ES.
The K is switching from sending energy direct to the ES, then to the H, then to the ES, then to the H, about 40 times per second in the Honda docs.
All this energy ultimately gets into the ES, but the 2MJ limit only applies to direct K->ES transfers.
It's a way to get 4MJ or more into the ES per lap, without relying on the MGU-H's other job, which is compounding energy out of exhaust gases.
Fantastic information, thank you Hino.
With a recent PU? Never.Blaze1 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:53 pmFantastic information, thank you Hino.
When was the last time and engine manufacturer was so open about the engine/PU?
Special thanks to Mr.hino +1Hino wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:14 pmSorry for getting these up late, it took a lot longer than planned. I'm sure there will be some translation errors and maybe Wazarisan can point those out. Enjoy.
Hahaha I'll have what you're having pls.
Honda Engineers also share the view tha the free development of the MGU-H was intentionally allowed by FIA to assist development and mass production for commercial vehicles!Hino wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:14 pmSorry for getting these up late, it took a lot longer than planned. I'm sure there will be some translation errors and maybe Wazarisan can point those out. Enjoy.
I think it's a good decision to use Es energy primerily for powering mgu-k, it is more efficient than using it for mgu-h.dren wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:39 pmIt says they regen around 70kw with the MGUH. It also says they ran the compressor with the H for max power often in 2016 but didn't have enough in the ES in 2017 to do it due to motoring the K more. The extra harvest helped to use eboost again. Thanks for the translation!!!
Pretty obvious answer. Car is under brakes or part throttle through a corner and the turbo speed needs to be maintained for anti-lag purposes. If it can be maintained direct from the K there are a number of benefits eg:Craigy wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:07 amQuestion:
If there was a real aim at not allowing this sort of energy flow, why is the K->H route even available?
H->K is obviously useful for self-sustaining mode, I get that. What's K->H for, if not this? Why is it bidirectional?
In other words, without flywheeling, in which situation do you want to spin up the speed of the compressor+turbine using power recovered from the K?
Others might claim that the intermediate destination is also an additional energy store which would make it illegal. Significant amounts of energy are being stored - although very short term the amount of energy being stored and released per-lap is significant.Nonserviam85 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:50 pmRegarding 2. someone can claim that since an intermediate legal destination exist, the whole philosophy is legal. Is there a possibility that FIA didn't anticipate this energy transfer being feasible or achievable when writing the rules? Or maybe this was FIA's intention when they allowed free transfer from/to MGU-H in order to advance the technology in this area?gruntguru wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:47 amLook at it this way.Nonserviam85 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:31 pmWhy you say that? F1 is full of examples of following the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law...Unless someone proves or hints that a specific manufacturers gains a huge advantage compared to the others I don't believe it should be banned, especially if all manufacturers do the same.
1. The FIA creates a rule to limit K to ES transfers to <2MJ/lap and ES to K transfers to <4 MJ/lap.
2. Someone comes up with the bright idea of exceeding these limits by sending the energy to a temporary storage location (the H) and almost immediately forwarding it to the (illegal) destination.
3. The FIA can monitor all these energy transfers by looking at data so they know about it.
What would the FIA do? There are only two logical options
1. Ban the "bright idea" as being outside the spirit of Rule # xxx
2. Remove Rule # xxx as being irrelevant since everybody can work around it.
Disagree. There is a K<->H path and there is a H<->ES path. There are perfectly good reasons for each of these - at different times on the track. The FIA did not intend this to become an unlimited K<->ES transfer path. There is no point in encouraging such a thing as opposed to simply adding an unlimited K<->ES path to the diagram.PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:18 pmThing is.. FIA did this to themselves. Remember that diagram they released showing the legal energy flows?
The K to H to ES was on it! The engineers just captitized on FIA frogetting to lock the "mguh backdoor" the way i view it.
http://static.sportskeeda.com/wp-conten ... 24x606.jpg
Wonderful effort Hino - I would give you more than one up-vote if I could. Unfortunately your translation shows I was wrong - they are indeed using the H as an energy store - storing and releasing 20 - 40 times per second.Hino wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:14 pmSorry for getting these up late, it took a lot longer than planned. I'm sure there will be some translation errors and maybe Wazarisan can point those out. Enjoy.