Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Hino]

No funny valves.

https://i.imgur.com/MUm5lPx.jpg

That translation is like 20-30% wrong or not accurate but should be ok if you are aware of it.

Perhaps need to make sure one thing: do everyone understand that those chamber diagrams are merely guess by the magazine created for explanation/reference? The top one is Mahle TJI recreated based on the research doc made public and the bottom one is "kinda like that" drawing of RA617H's based on what they learned from observation of PU and interview session (obviously they did not reveal anything more than what can be observed from outside ie exhaust side injection).

I mentioned that there were translation errors when I posted. IIRC, I never gave any intention in the translation that combustion design was what Honda was using and as you mentioned as a example.

[johnny comelately]

If it may help, there is a lot of barking up the wrong tree in some of the previous posts (i hope that translates ok)

[ringo]

the K motors the H by K generation of electrical energy mechanically loading the ICE
at 20 or 40 Hz

Isn't mechanically driving the ICE which in turn is depending on the exhaust gases to power the H with that little energy from the K inefficient?
Why not send the power from the K back through the cables that go from the MGUH directly to the MGUK?
If that makes sense.

The direct route from K to ES is limited by regulation to 2 mj per lap. The route from K to ES via the H is unlimited.

This second , unlimited, route is only used once the 2 mj limit has benn used up. It’s less efficient than simply driving the K to charge the ES which happens under acceleration before the driver reaches WOT.

More subtly the unlimited route may be used before the 2 mj limit has been reached in order that the full 2 mj is achieved using the more efficient, direct driving, route.

The reason i say that the MGUK is wired to the MGUH, and is not necessaryly driving the ICE to indirectly turbocharge the MGUH, is from diagram. The energy flow is going through the MGU Control unit and not the ICE.
Flow to the control unit is unlimited and from electrical conversion, more efficient than all the energy conversion paths through the ice, turbo etc.
You guys are too smart for your own good, and over analyzing with damping etc.
Correct me if i'm wrong for misinterpreting the diagram, but that is how i am seeing it, MGUK maybe has a clutch, which it disengages from the flywheel, and then it loads the mguh generator directly via cables?
Much less complicated to control this way and get that 20-40Hz input.

[henry]

Isn't mechanically driving the ICE which in turn is depending on the exhaust gases to power the H with that little energy from the K inefficient?
Why not send the power from the K back through the cables that go from the MGUH directly to the MGUK?
If that makes sense.

The direct route from K to ES is limited by regulation to 2 mj per lap. The route from K to ES via the H is unlimited.

This second , unlimited, route is only used once the 2 mj limit has benn used up. It’s less efficient than simply driving the K to charge the ES which happens under acceleration before the driver reaches WOT.

More subtly the unlimited route may be used before the 2 mj limit has been reached in order that the full 2 mj is achieved using the more efficient, direct driving, route.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-DDJ43WpUDWc/U ... iagram.jpg

The reason i say that the MGUK is wired to the MGUH, and is not necessaryly driving the ICE to indirectly turbocharge the MGUH, is from diagram. The energy flow is going through the MGU Control unit and not the ICE.
Flow to the control unit is unlimited and from electrical conversion, more efficient than all the energy conversion paths through the ice, turbo etc.
You guys are too smart for your own good, and over analyzing with damping etc.
Correct me if i'm wrong for misinterpreting the diagram, but that is how i am seeing it, MGUK maybe has a clutch, which it disengages from the flywheel, and then it loads the mguh generator directly via cables?
Much less complicated to control this way and get that 20-40Hz input.

I think you’re wrong

The MGU-K doesn’t drive the ICE, it’s the other way round.

The ICE drives the MGU-K which sends energy to the CU and on to the MGU-H, it does this for maybe 1/40 of a second, and then stops, this speeds up the H assembly. The CU then connects the H to the ES and the energy flows from the H via the CU to the ES, the H assembly slows. Just like the diagram.

There is no clutch between the K and ICE, it’s not allowed by regulation.

I don’t think the guys talking about damping are over analysing. Hitting the drive train with 120 kw 20 times a second must hurt.

[ringo]

Well, apologies for the brain fade, The ICE or the gear train while braking to be specific whichever the case, i am emphasizing the path through the Controller.
I thought it was being suggested that energy flow was not through the controller for this extra mode of mguh harvest.
As for over analyzing, i was more pointing to the energy flow. Damping is less relevant to the MGUH if the energy flow is conditioned by controller.

[muramasa]

I like this guy
I've highlighted in bold the important part.
Most of what is reported by the media is the same as this forum - pure speculation.

Maybe I need to clarify for once.

Regarding the chamber diagram of the article, this

...those chamber diagrams are merely guess by the magazine created for explanation/reference

The top one is Mahle TJI recreated based on the research doc made public and the bottom one is "kinda like that" drawing of RA617H's based on what they learned from observation of PU and interview session (obviously they did not reveal anything more than what can be observed from outside ie exhaust side injection).

is what the original text (in the center right part in the chamber diagram section) actually says, not me (of course paraphrased a lot, so more like "what and how anyone who read it would take it" tho). No ambiguous, it explicitly states that these are just abstract/outline drawings, or that those factual elements like fuel line position (on the exhaust side), top ignition and F1 reg as fossil bone and the diagram as dinosaur imagery drawing based on these, if it makes sense (Mahle's one as well, patent/academic paper contents as fossil and diagram as easy explanatory drawing based on that).

So, could you get the above from this translation?

https://i.imgur.com/MUm5lPx.jpg

Maybe not, at least that translation does not express it. That is the point.

And about this particular article, there is no speculation. It's direct sessions at Sakura with genuine Honda engineers by a very able tech journalist (Kota Sera), there is only facts (info and explanations from engineers, materials provided by Honda like data, display PU, etc), with some renderings and references that are necessary to give readers explanations and help get better idea. Which one is fact, which one is paraphrased explanation of it, which one is technical assessment, which one is complimentary explanation etc are clear. In this case, top ignition and fuel rail positioned below the exhaust is a fact. "How" is not clear and only have to guess but the author team wants to show quick overall concept hence rough sketch to help readers understand easier. All that is clear.

Also their display PUs are consisted of real components that are actually used or of actual use spec (read somewhere before, and this can be easily confirmed by looking at and comparing with GP photos anyway), unlike Renault's (seem they use some genuine parts too but exhaust for instance is not of actual GP use obviously).

Anyways so even something as clear and trivial as this, it takes this much clarification.
That is the very article I translated and posted several pages back so that's the effective proofread.　
　

[godlameroso]

In other words Honda shows concept in truth, but does not reveal the details which are essential to understanding. Leaving us to use our imagination in order to fill in the details. While revealing no concrete information, it does go to stimulating thoughts, some are close most are way off, but sooner or later the truth comes to surface. They couldn't keep the fact flame ignition is part of the combustion process but there's still a lot of secrets, and things we aren't aware of.

The people that demand to see proof etc, you're welcome to spend a few hundred million euros and figure it out yourselves.

[loner]

about 18 laps and kaboom
but TBH i find the way the smoke come out of the rear interesting not the usual way it was exploding .. not mocking seriously

[rscsr]

about 18 laps and kaboom
but TBH i find the way the smoke come out of the rear interesting not the usual way it was exploding .. not mocking seriously

I think in the broadcast they said that it was hydraulic, not engine.

[MMMMMMMM]

Thought it lasted only till 15th lap. Nevermind.
Last time Honda produced a winning engine was over 25 years ago... V6T era is a complete write-off.
I don't understand why the Honda board doesn't acknowledge the current situation and pull the plug.
The damage has been done, there's no going back, what they can do is just do the aftermath and get some learning out of it.
What's the purpose carrying it on, they will not catch up, not this year, not next year, not in 2020.

[etusch]

[media]https://twitter.com/HondaRacingF1/statu ... 8144582656[/media]

[No343NoLife]

MGU-H Failure

[media]https://twitter.com/hondajp/status/977814696869945345[/media]

[Jerrycobra]

I guess how ever much testing you do it ain't a true test until the actual race. At race pace the engines aren't even pushed to the "limit" but I guess something about actual racing conditions just stress these engines a bit more that can cause a failure vs a race simulation. From the replays it looks like it might have blew a turbo or on oil line. The ICE was still running when it pulled into the pits.

[etusch]

Hope it is still usable. Until first update engine must live.

[sn809]

Hope it is still usable. Until first update engine must live.

They should just pop in the upgraded engine.