Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
PhillipM
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by PhillipM » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:37 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:18 pm
I've noticed the drivability of the Honda engine seems very good, possibly why it's tire wear is so good.
It does seem very good, TR seem to be able to get on the throttle pretty early and smoothly - but then, with the amount of work Honda did with Mclaren the past two years on getting the drivability sorted out, it should be.

bigblue
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by bigblue » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:29 am

HPD wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:02 pm
"We have a lot of things to do and not many short-term solutions, most are long-term. [If] we develop something and then apply it to the engine, we need to have a reliability test. "Any tiny thing to improve the performance, we need time."
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/coy- ... s-1043645/
This is pulling one bit out of the conversation, but it does sound a little odd. How different is this year's engine to last year's ? I had assumed it is a thoroughly debugged and fixed version of last year's with a few small improvements. So did all of winter pass fixing last season's engine ?

I imagined that there were some reasonably significant performance improvements being developed over winter. I suppose you could read that statement as long-planned upgrades were being reliability tested, but at face value it sounds a bit like "don't get your hopes up too high". Maybe it's just expectation management, or nuances not being quite right in someone's second language, or translation error, or just me reading too much into it. Wonder what these many non short-term solutions are. Yes, I'm bored waiting for Canada !

PhillipM
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by PhillipM » Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:34 am

This years engine is quite a lot different to last years, it's actually the engine they were supposed to introduce last year and kept delaying because of the talks that were happening, and it never got in the Mclaren.

loner
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by loner » Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:19 pm

bigblue wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:29 am
HPD wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:02 pm
"We have a lot of things to do and not many short-term solutions, most are long-term. [If] we develop something and then apply it to the engine, we need to have a reliability test. "Any tiny thing to improve the performance, we need time."
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/coy- ... s-1043645/
This is pulling one bit out of the conversation, but it does sound a little odd. How different is this year's engine to last year's ? I had assumed it is a thoroughly debugged and fixed version of last year's with a few small improvements. So did all of winter pass fixing last season's engine ?

I imagined that there were some reasonably significant performance improvements being developed over winter. I suppose you could read that statement as long-planned upgrades were being reliability tested, but at face value it sounds a bit like "don't get your hopes up too high". Maybe it's just expectation management, or nuances not being quite right in someone's second language, or translation error, or just me reading too much into it. Wonder what these many non short-term solutions are. Yes, I'm bored waiting for Canada !
i assume he is talking accordingly to the top PU .. thats why Honda needs the best chassis to shrink the deficit.
para bellum.

etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by etusch » Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:06 pm

So Canada update confirmed from the first mouth. It is interesting that he not questioned about power gain of update.

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:48 pm

The thing is the total output is not the same as sustained output. Wazari made a really good analogy of this a few pages back regarding a hydroelectric plant. You can't just run it full steam all the time, a lot of different factors are considered so that it runs at an efficient level.

If you improve combustion alone how will that affect turbine operation? Will it require more or less from the compressor? How will it affect turbine recovery, and the exhaust backpressure needed to have good recovery? So you change the compressor to take advantage, and then you must also make changes to the cylinder head. Then you find some more reliable way to route coolant through the engine because of different heating characteristics of the block because of your new combustion technique, and then you have to see how it's going to affect the MGU-K. Do you have more crank energy to send to the H, how will the inertia in the crank rods and pistons and the new combustion process interact with the K. Development isn't just slapping on a new head and problem solved, development works as a holistic improvement of all systems.

These systems are so integrated that there's still lots of gains to be made by developing new harvesting and deployment strategies, working the systems so they work better with the car. Better harvesting in areas where deployment isn't so important like part throttle, or very short straights, saving deployment or more aggressive modes where more speed is required. Fine tuning alone can bring a few tenths of performance throughout the year.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

loner
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by loner » Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:52 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:48 pm
The thing is the total output is not the same as sustained output. Wazari made a really good analogy of this a few pages back regarding a hydroelectric plant. You can't just run it full steam all the time, a lot of different factors are considered so that it runs at an efficient level.

If you improve combustion alone how will that affect turbine operation? Will it require more or less from the compressor? How will it affect turbine recovery, and the exhaust backpressure needed to have good recovery? So you change the compressor to take advantage, and then you must also make changes to the cylinder head. Then you find some more reliable way to route coolant through the engine because of different heating characteristics of the block because of your new combustion technique, and then you have to see how it's going to affect the MGU-K. Do you have more crank energy to send to the H, how will the inertia in the crank rods and pistons and the new combustion process interact with the K. Development isn't just slapping on a new head and problem solved, development works as a holistic improvement of all systems.

These systems are so integrated that there's still lots of gains to be made by developing new harvesting and deployment strategies, working the systems so they work better with the car. Better harvesting in areas where deployment isn't so important like part throttle, or very short straights, saving deployment or more aggressive modes where more speed is required. Fine tuning alone can bring a few tenths of performance throughout the year.
can't believe such state of art engineering will be gone soon :x
any way by Canada upgrade i feel Honda will surpass Renault by 5-10 hp.
para bellum.

Bill
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Bill » Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:45 pm

Any fuel upgrade,perhaps Honda can get at another 10hp from that

GhostF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by GhostF1 » Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:09 pm

"In basic terms: Modernisation of the ICE"

Between the lines, possible first Honda confirmation of what we suspected. Big overhaul to the main ICE components. Heads, block etc.

bigblue
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by bigblue » Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:12 pm

From an article at grandprix.com
Honda will take "a considerable step" this weekend in Canada [...] Rumours suggest Honda's step forward will be as much as 40 hp.
40 !? No way. No-one has ever brought close to that much in-season. They must've been reading the forums :-) Happy to be proved wrong, but I very much doubt that will occur.

mzso
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by mzso » Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:13 pm

bigblue wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:12 pm
40 !? No way. No-one has ever brought close to that much in-season. They must've been reading the forums :-) Happy to be proved wrong, but I very much doubt that will occur.
The larger the deficit the larger the potential gains.

By the way. How much is the deficit to Mercedes and Ferrari believed/rumored to be for Renault and Honda right now?

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:56 pm

I'm guessing this is a pretty comprehensive change. Wazari mentioned a type of "cross valve" head where each camshaft instead of only controlling either the intake or exhaust valves, because of the design of the head, resulted in each individual camshaft operating both intake and exhaust valves. A type of cross flow head which required a taller head because of the port geometry.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Tommy Cookers » Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:15 pm

this presumably 'diagonally opposed' as tried by F1 Repco-Brabham and F2 BMWs (Apfelbeck) in the 1960s
the unreliable F1 RB860 32 valver of 1968 had type 50 'diagonal' heads (16 inlets and 16 exhausts) or the conventional type 60

diagonal head sequence going round the chamber - exhaust - inlet - exhaust - inlet
conventional sequence going round the chamber - exhaust - exhaust - inlet - inlet

Apfelbeck's design had 'radial' valves (so compound angle actuation) and uniquely these were diagonally opposed
(unlike eg the Rudge 1930s and more recent Honda motorcycles)
used in F2 and hillclimbs c.1966/7
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

PhillipM
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by PhillipM » Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:24 pm

Like the old Lancia rally motor, we discussed the possibility of using this for this formula quite a long time ago on here somewhere, if I can find it, so it'll be interesting if true.

dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by dren » Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:27 pm

I assume for more swirl action in the chamber. Don't some diesel engines use this configuration?
Honda!