The H is recovering energy from the turbine, and the turbine is powered by the exhaust gases that come out of the engine. However the turbine can also be powered by the MGU-K directly, which means you can use crankshaft power to power the MGU-H indirectly. This is how you get 2MJ/lap from the K to the ES and whatever excess comes from the H, and it works in the other direction as well. You can send 4MJ from the battery to the MGU-K directly, but you can send unlimited energy from the battery, or some other energy source to the MGU-K indirectly, either through engine ancillaries, the engine itself, or the MGU-H.atanatizante wrote: ↑09 Jul 2018, 19:09I don`t know if that`s an old topic or the right thread in order to get some advised answer regarding what Nico Rosberg said about Ferrari have found in their ERS area but I`ll give it a go ...
This is the first part https://streamable.com/hg6gd
And here he elaborates further on: https://streamable.com/vh89e
From my understanding he speaks something about MGU-H, right? We knew that is allowed to have maximum 120kw/160hp for only 33 sec. and that`s 4MJ from which the only 2MJ could be provided from MGU-K. Nowhere said that they aren`t allowed to deploy 159HP for the rest of the time, isn`t it? Just to have the appropriate MGU-H in order to let them have that amount of power … so that`s it? Do they have a better “H”?
#aerogollumturbof1 wrote: YOU SHALL NOT......STALLLLL!!!
If they have sufficient energy recovery, they can run 120kW all the time.atanatizante wrote: ↑09 Jul 2018, 19:09I don`t know if that`s an old topic or the right thread in order to get some advised answer regarding what Nico Rosberg said about Ferrari have found in their ERS area but I`ll give it a go ...
This is the first part https://streamable.com/hg6gd
And here he elaborates further on: https://streamable.com/vh89e
From my understanding he speaks something about MGU-H, right? We knew that is allowed to have maximum 120kw/160hp for only 33 sec. and that`s 4MJ from which the only 2MJ could be provided from MGU-K. Nowhere said that they aren`t allowed to deploy 159HP for the rest of the time, isn`t it? Just to have the appropriate MGU-H in order to let them have that amount of power … so that`s it? Do they have a better “H”?
good news since i do want current regulations to continue and get explored more its a rabbit hole with lots of undiscovered energy yet.godlameroso wrote: ↑10 Jul 2018, 14:11Looks like the current power units are going to stay beyond 2021, maybe some standardized parts. Particularly interesting that Honda wants to keep the MGU-H all of a sudden. That to me is very telling in a general sense.
"So if somebody would commit to come into F1 in the way that all four of us [Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault, Honda] have committed ourselves, go through the lows and highs, the expenses and investment that it needs, then let's discuss engine regulations.
"But if nobody's inside, it's an academic discussion."
Christian Horner also indicated that the lack of new entrants had become an issue. In addition Honda is keen to keep the MGU-H, and Red Bull is backing that position.
Lesser tech is not acceptable for F1 anymore I think. If they go back, they will be way behind in tech from other series.godlameroso wrote: ↑10 Jul 2018, 14:11Looks like the current power units are going to stay beyond 2021, maybe some standardized parts. Particularly interesting that Honda wants to keep the MGU-H all of a sudden. That to me is very telling in a general sense.
Actually, they may be hitting a wall with the hybrid tech. Some teams may already be deploying max K output throughout laps. Which means further power gains will be made only via the ICE. The choice would be to drop the H or rewrite the electrical drivetrain allowances.
They want to develop compounding and hybrid tech, and not go down the combustion rabbit hole any further.godlameroso wrote: ↑10 Jul 2018, 14:11Looks like the current power units are going to stay beyond 2021, maybe some standardized parts. Particularly interesting that Honda wants to keep the MGU-H all of a sudden. That to me is very telling in a general sense.
They can keep developing combustion without an MGU-H. Which will enable lighter engines accomplishing the same task. Kinetic reclamation can remain and this is part of the 2021 formula proposal. Completing the same task with less weight, cost, and complexity, should also be considered 'tech.'
Consider that they burn fuel to charge the ES via the H & K. These MGUs incentivize part-throttle & off-throttle fuel burning within the existing ruleset. I wager the current ICE fuel consumption can be maintained with an unassisted TC. Fuel use may actually decrease with removal of the H because development focus will shift back to combustion development, away from series-hybrid development. Braking-only K regen would also help.
Honda technical director Toyoharu Tanabe said his company would "miss" the component, and F1's other engine manufacturers agreed they supported keeping the MGU-H when asked by Autosport.
Cowell, the managing director of Mercedes High Performance Powertrains, said it will remove "a lot of energy" from the engines.
He explained the MGU-H provides 60% of the electric energy used to power the other part of the energy recovery system, the MGU-K, and contributes 5% of the current engine's thermal efficiency.
"The MGU-H has been blamed for the lack of noise and for high complexity," said Cowell.
"It's been referred to as a miracle. There are four technology companies that have made it work.
"To make up the power difference we're going to have to increase the fuel flow rate, which is a backwards step.
"It's not progress. It feels like a backwards step when the development work has been done."
Cowell said engine manufacturers would now need to develop anti-lag systems for the turbocharged engines as the MGU-H is "the most marvellous anti-lag system because it gives you speed control".
He added: "We'll have to come up with various systems and devices and that will probably involve burning some fuel through the exhaust, which doesn't feel the most honourable thing to do as an engineer.
"But it's a balance between technology and entertainment and we've got to get that balance right."
Ferrari technical director Mattia Binotto said Cowell's examples were evidence of the MGU-H being a "fantastic, efficient component".
Renault's engine technical director Remi Taffin said all four manufacturers had outlined their desire to keep the MGU-H as part of an "initial proposal".
"We are trying to have good discussions to go forward for keeping developing this power unit in a different way," he said.
"We did a lot of work on the MGU-H, it's working, it's a very nice part. It's not something we will put on the shelf and forget.
"The MGU-H is not directly translatable but it's a high-speed motor, it's quite a unique technology, and we're not going to put that on the shelf."
roon wrote: ↑10 Jul 2018, 18:27Actually, they may be hitting a wall with the hybrid tech. Some teams may already be deploying max K output throughout laps. Which means further power gains will be made only via the ICE. The choice would be to drop the H or rewrite the electrical drivetrain allowances.
Asked if manufacturers were now getting to the limit of the current regulations, Cowell replied: "I think that comes down to your belief and understanding of whether there is a limit.
"I personally don't believe there is a limit. I think you can always find gains.
"Every week I have the pleasure to sit in our performance and innovation meeting and listen to bright engineers come up with ways of getting a little bit more efficiency out of the various systems and then enjoying the competition in the factory to turn those ideas in proven experiments, and then prove that they are reliable enough.
"So, for all four [engine manufacturers], we will continue to develop and there is no such thing as a limit."
Increasing the fuel flow rate does not necessarily mean that total fuel consumption will increase.loner wrote: ↑10 Jul 2018, 21:40Honda technical director Toyoharu Tanabe said his company would "miss" the component, and F1's other engine manufacturers agreed they supported keeping the MGU-H when asked by Autosport.
Cowell, the managing director of Mercedes High Performance Powertrains, said it will remove "a lot of energy" from the engines.
He explained the MGU-H provides 60% of the electric energy used to power the other part of the energy recovery system, the MGU-K, and contributes 5% of the current engine's thermal efficiency.
"The MGU-H has been blamed for the lack of noise and for high complexity," said Cowell.
"It's been referred to as a miracle. There are four technology companies that have made it work.
"To make up the power difference we're going to have to increase the fuel flow rate, which is a backwards step.
"It's not progress. It feels like a backwards step when the development work has been done."
Cowell said engine manufacturers would now need to develop anti-lag systems for the turbocharged engines as the MGU-H is "the most marvellous anti-lag system because it gives you speed control".
He added: "We'll have to come up with various systems and devices and that will probably involve burning some fuel through the exhaust, which doesn't feel the most honourable thing to do as an engineer.
"But it's a balance between technology and entertainment and we've got to get that balance right."
Ferrari technical director Mattia Binotto said Cowell's examples were evidence of the MGU-H being a "fantastic, efficient component".
Renault's engine technical director Remi Taffin said all four manufacturers had outlined their desire to keep the MGU-H as part of an "initial proposal".
"We are trying to have good discussions to go forward for keeping developing this power unit in a different way," he said.
"We did a lot of work on the MGU-H, it's working, it's a very nice part. It's not something we will put on the shelf and forget.
"The MGU-H is not directly translatable but it's a high-speed motor, it's quite a unique technology, and we're not going to put that on the shelf."
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