Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Zynerji
58
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Zynerji » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:36 pm

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:33 pm
burning fuel to make electricity is energy accumulation - but energy accumulation from fuel accumulation is banned
Just like movable aero is banned, except for wings on brake ducts... 8)

Bence
10
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:36 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Bence » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:44 am

etusch wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:05 pm
Lesser tech is not acceptable for F1 anymore I think. If they go back, they will be way behind in tech from other series.
That is good news for me.
I most certainly value the efforts of the Wazari team - especially the latest, not yet debuted spec with the new turbine, with the new fuel and proper mapping. But I think a lot of us (and millions of viewers) would be perfectly content with an ancient Suzuka Special V10 DOWNGRADED with a mechanical throttle linkage. No hidden software, no auto-deleting cheatery - just a foot, wires, linkage and LOUD, fascinating power.

The artificially generated perception of an "economical F1 engine" is BS. These turbos are not clean either; FAR from it. So why the fuss?

Do you really want some juicy Prius-tech in your EFF ONE racers? Where does fuel consumption really counts in flat-out racing? Does anyone think in the crowd on the grandstands that "oh, how lucky we are that those Honda/Merc/Ferrari/etc engines don't consume more fuel, because if they'd slurp more, I'd immediately quit watching the series"... Nonsense! It's just a form of a skewed, tech-driven bean counterism. People simply want to look/feel like cactuses when a thundering race engine pulls by...

And the whole philosophy is directly related to technical aspects, yes. Does the new Honda weigh more? Yup. Is it physically larger? Check. But it is also more rigid torsionally and more powerful. So, is this concept an advanced one? Yes, definitely.

But personally, I see more elegance in a VHS cassette than in a USB stick. I'd take a tourbillon over an LCD watch any day. THAT is orchestrated synergy; a dance of fascinating energy paths. A tourbillon is way more than the sum of its parts. And anyone who doesn't understand the Antikythera mechanism, should not play with lightning/electricity.
And most importantly: do they perform that they were designed for? Yes, even with their shortcomings. Does the cassette contain playable videos/films? Ahem. Capacity & quick access? Nooope. Does the tourbillon show time? Surely. Do you accuse it for being unable to show emails?

Were the MIXED V12/V10/V8s wonderful racing engines? Starting together? On the straights? Were they thirsty? HELL, YES! And nobody missed anything.

wuzak
356
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by wuzak » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:34 am

Bence wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:44 am
Where does fuel consumption really counts in flat-out racing?
Better fuel efficiency = less fuel carried = better lap times.

Since the ban on refuelling the teams have regularly under-filled their cars, which requires periods of fuel saving. They do this because the lap time gain from lower weight is greater than that lost from lower power settings.

etusch
93
User avatar
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:09 pm
Location: Turkey

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by etusch » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:59 am

Bence wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:44 am
etusch wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:05 pm
Lesser tech is not acceptable for F1 anymore I think. If they go back, they will be way behind in tech from other series.
That is good news for me.
I most certainly value the efforts of the Wazari team - especially the latest, not yet debuted spec with the new turbine, with the new fuel and proper mapping. But I think a lot of us (and millions of viewers) would be perfectly content with an ancient Suzuka Special V10 DOWNGRADED with a mechanical throttle linkage. No hidden software, no auto-deleting cheatery - just a foot, wires, linkage and LOUD, fascinating power.

The artificially generated perception of an "economical F1 engine" is BS. These turbos are not clean either; FAR from it. So why the fuss?

Do you really want some juicy Prius-tech in your EFF ONE racers? Where does fuel consumption really counts in flat-out racing? Does anyone think in the crowd on the grandstands that "oh, how lucky we are that those Honda/Merc/Ferrari/etc engines don't consume more fuel, because if they'd slurp more, I'd immediately quit watching the series"... Nonsense! It's just a form of a skewed, tech-driven bean counterism. People simply want to look/feel like cactuses when a thundering race engine pulls by...

And the whole philosophy is directly related to technical aspects, yes. Does the new Honda weigh more? Yup. Is it physically larger? Check. But it is also more rigid torsionally and more powerful. So, is this concept an advanced one? Yes, definitely.

But personally, I see more elegance in a VHS cassette than in a USB stick. I'd take a tourbillon over an LCD watch any day. THAT is orchestrated synergy; a dance of fascinating energy paths. A tourbillon is way more than the sum of its parts. And anyone who doesn't understand the Antikythera mechanism, should not play with lightning/electricity.
And most importantly: do they perform that they were designed for? Yes, even with their shortcomings. Does the cassette contain playable videos/films? Ahem. Capacity & quick access? Nooope. Does the tourbillon show time? Surely. Do you accuse it for being unable to show emails?

Were the MIXED V12/V10/V8s wonderful racing engines? Starting together? On the straights? Were they thirsty? HELL, YES! And nobody missed anything.
Less fuel consumption is a challenge too if you want to see fight of technology to technology, engineering to engineering and driver to driver. If you just want to watch driver ability than there must be a serie that the standart cars racing.
For me, there are too much restrictions for ice. If I am not wrong they use obligated bore strok. I prefer that they must say that 1.6 lt only. I also don't like fuel restrictions. I like to see pit for fuel.

BrunoH
9
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2016 12:18 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by BrunoH » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:11 am

to be fair for tech we have formula E... its electric and its the road relevant tech.

for F1 to be honest its just smoke and mirrors...

i want v12, v10 v8, all in the mixx, want to have some hybrid? ok then add a kers like we had before... for me just pure engine wold be best because of low weight.

as a f1 fan i want to see fast cars, a bit shorter because they look like a bus now... and screaming engines! thats what f1 is all about! that is what fills the grandstands!
also simple aero rules and wide tires. no big costs here. actualy very much cheaper for the teams and a lot more entertaining for us. Win-win...

i dont care for enviormental or road relevance stuff on f1. we have Formula-e for that of lemans series if you like.

Bill
-5
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:28 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Bill » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:53 am

When it comes to engine they all those who talk about them and those who actually spend money building them and hiring people. Unless you have made tangible investment u got no vote . You have make do with what you are being offered.

cyro_666
0
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:46 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by cyro_666 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:31 pm

Bence wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:44 am
etusch wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:05 pm
Lesser tech is not acceptable for F1 anymore I think. If they go back, they will be way behind in tech from other series.
That is good news for me.
I most certainly value the efforts of the Wazari team - especially the latest, not yet debuted spec with the new turbine, with the new fuel and proper mapping. But I think a lot of us (and millions of viewers) would be perfectly content with an ancient Suzuka Special V10 DOWNGRADED with a mechanical throttle linkage. No hidden software, no auto-deleting cheatery - just a foot, wires, linkage and LOUD, fascinating power.

The artificially generated perception of an "economical F1 engine" is BS. These turbos are not clean either; FAR from it. So why the fuss?

Do you really want some juicy Prius-tech in your EFF ONE racers? Where does fuel consumption really counts in flat-out racing? Does anyone think in the crowd on the grandstands that "oh, how lucky we are that those Honda/Merc/Ferrari/etc engines don't consume more fuel, because if they'd slurp more, I'd immediately quit watching the series"... Nonsense! It's just a form of a skewed, tech-driven bean counterism. People simply want to look/feel like cactuses when a thundering race engine pulls by...

And the whole philosophy is directly related to technical aspects, yes. Does the new Honda weigh more? Yup. Is it physically larger? Check. But it is also more rigid torsionally and more powerful. So, is this concept an advanced one? Yes, definitely.

But personally, I see more elegance in a VHS cassette than in a USB stick. I'd take a tourbillon over an LCD watch any day. THAT is orchestrated synergy; a dance of fascinating energy paths. A tourbillon is way more than the sum of its parts. And anyone who doesn't understand the Antikythera mechanism, should not play with lightning/electricity.
And most importantly: do they perform that they were designed for? Yes, even with their shortcomings. Does the cassette contain playable videos/films? Ahem. Capacity & quick access? Nooope. Does the tourbillon show time? Surely. Do you accuse it for being unable to show emails?

Were the MIXED V12/V10/V8s wonderful racing engines? Starting together? On the straights? Were they thirsty? HELL, YES! And nobody missed anything.
You missed one crucial thing. Would the manufacturers be interested in your proposed engine? With the exception of Ferrari, probably not. The other manufacturers want something they can bring to road cars. And yes, Mercedes is actually developing the MGU-H for diesel trucks. In fact, all of them want to keep it according to interviews.

TwanV
27
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:41 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by TwanV » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:33 pm

kind of says it all doesn't it, F1 road-relevance being diesel-truck-relevance. :lol:

hurril
44
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by hurril » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:10 pm

We could have F1 classic too where we could say that they have to run V10 or V12, 3.0 liters, mechanical injection and that's that. I would probably watch that as well, but making F1 become some bastardised sanctuary for the 1980:ies is just boring. What we have now is awesome, the MGU-h is part of the reason that I watch it.

Sasha
67
Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:43 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Sasha » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:40 pm

Honda wants to bring HERS to their production cars(there is a plan to do so sooner than later).

Honda is now developing their next production engine family that is do in 2020(in print just called 2020 engines).
Rumor is they will have Turbochargers and Electric Supercharger(48V) and planning on adding HERS at some point(full HEV models?).

godlameroso
355
User avatar
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:58 pm

If they make a new S2000 I'm in. I was a little disappointed with the type R, it's no faster on track than a lightly tuned S2k.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Talisman
23
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:37 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Talisman » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:15 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:11 pm
Looks like the current power units are going to stay beyond 2021, maybe some standardized parts. Particularly interesting that Honda wants to keep the MGU-H all of a sudden. That to me is very telling in a general sense.
I think Honda always did want to keep the MGUH but are simply politically invisible so didn't publicise that until now. I don't understand why Honda continue with this kind of attitude towards politics as it has cost them a lot throughout their history. Even when the current engine regulations were being drawn up and Honda were rumoured to be interested they didn't bother turning up to the meetings were the new rules were discussed. Even companies that had little interest in F1 turned up to those.

gruntguru
438
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:43 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by gruntguru » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:25 pm

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:33 pm
without the MGU-H they would surely use twin turbochargers - so reducing lag

no doubt Mercedes efficiency figures are for performance when not burning fuel to make electricity
burning fuel to make electricity is energy accumulation - but energy accumulation from fuel accumulation is of course banned
energy accumulation has the wonderful property of allowing energy to be used when most laptime-effective
Twin turbochargers would bring a slight efficiency penalty so that might be a difficult decision - in a fuel-flow restricted formula.

The efficiency claims - as you say - would be based on crankshaft output plus MGUH output with no flow to or from the ES. I wonder how close they are approaching the point where the MGUH output is greater than the 120 kW they are allowed to send to the MGUK?
je suis charlie

Bence
10
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:36 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Bence » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:45 pm

wuzak wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:34 am
Bence wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:44 am
Where does fuel consumption really counts in flat-out racing?
Better fuel efficiency = less fuel carried = better lap times.

Since the ban on refuelling the teams have regularly under-filled their cars, which requires periods of fuel saving. They do this because the lap time gain from lower weight is greater than that lost from lower power settings.
Of course I meant the spectator POV, not the engineering side.

Edit: if you watched the fire-up video of the Beast of Turin Fiat and you hairs were as little nails, you know what I'm talking about. Big, unrefined, slurps fuel like a legion in an oasis, fiery, luscious pleasure, mechanical libido sculptured in metal = a MONSTER. Like those old 505/525kg cars powered by 1500hp quali engines.
And no, it's not for the 1980s sake - rather in the spirit of Soichiro Honda. Honda needs to set its targets toward the impossible. That spurs development, because real thinkers must continually tap the morphogenetic field to get their aha-moments/brilliant ideas.

True road relevance does not exist. Hybrids gave F1 their tech first, so it's rather F1/sport relevance. Artificial. Automakers can not use their innovations lying in the dark drawers/individual inventions, if it conflicts the Big Oil. Remember the destroyed/suppressed high mileage carbs? You should.
Last edited by Bence on Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

roon
444
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:04 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by roon » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:08 am

gruntguru wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:25 pm
I wonder how close they are approaching the point where the MGUH output is greater than the 120 kW they are allowed to send to the MGUK?
I wouldn't be surprised if Merc had it from the start. Part of their strategic sandbagging. Since 2014 there had been the opportunity to have full duration use of the MGUK so long as your H was big enough to power it directly. Power gains observed over the seasons could have come mainly or exclusively from combustion/ICE development, with electric drive develoments largely static.

The H has a min. weight limit and max. rotation speed, the K has a min. weight limit and max. power output, the ES has a min. weight limit and a max. capacity limit. So there's not much room for development of those items, outside of reliability. Hence why some favor ditching the H, losing an intermittent H-to-K 120kW, and regaining it with ICE dev & increased K output.
Last edited by roon on Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:05 am, edited 1 time in total.