Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Bence
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Bence » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:33 am

roon wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:08 am
I wouldn't be surprised if Merc had it from the start. Part of their strategic sandbagging. Since 2014 there had been the opportunity to have full duration use of the MGUK so long as your H was big enough to power it directly. Power gains observed over the seasons could have come mainly or exclusively from combustion/ICE development, with electric drive developments largely static.
Point.

And exactly the interpretation side was Honda's weakness. They built primarily a V6, spiced up with a turbocharger, and secondarily a hybrid electric part as a side. Strictly 160/33.33. And then came the OOPS moment.

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:56 am

So how much is it a technology and engineering deficit and how much of it is purely down to running the power unit in the right way? I understand the two are related to an extent but surely the deficit favors one side of the spectrum.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Singabule
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Singabule » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:15 am

hurril wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:10 pm
We could have F1 classic too where we could say that they have to run V10 or V12, 3.0 liters, mechanical injection and that's that. I would probably watch that as well, but making F1 become some bastardised sanctuary for the 1980:ies is just boring. What we have now is awesome, the MGU-h is part of the reason that I watch it.
Me too

Big Tea
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Big Tea » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:39 am

roon wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:08 am
gruntguru wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:25 pm
I wonder how close they are approaching the point where the MGUH output is greater than the 120 kW they are allowed to send to the MGUK?
I wouldn't be surprised if Merc had it from the start. Part of their strategic sandbagging. Since 2014 there had been the opportunity to have full duration use of the MGUK so long as your H was big enough to power it directly. Power gains observed over the seasons could have come mainly or exclusively from combustion/ICE development, with electric drive develoments largely static.

The H has a min. weight limit and max. rotation speed, the K has a min. weight limit and max. power output, the ES has a min. weight limit and a max. capacity limit. So there's not much room for development of those items, outside of reliability. Hence why some favor ditching the H, losing an intermittent H-to-K 120kW, and regaining it with ICE dev & increased K output.
Although the H has a max Rev limit, does it have a max dia? There is a lot of scope here is there not?
I know it has to be driven and every little makes the acceleration (of the rotating section) slower, but there is more area and rim speed for the same RPM?
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:55 am

The ES only has a deployment limit to the K. There is no capacity limit.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Tommy Cookers » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:54 am

the rules incl. the electrical side's are designed to frustrate in every way a major departure from the piston engine
maybe people should accept that ?
ok 3 companies designers failed to appreciate the extent of what was available within the rules

given that the H is a c.100 kW machine 125000 rpm is as fast as mechanical and electrical factors allow
otoh neither greater diameter nor greater length are possible at 125000 rpm - it's a miracle already

of course the H could in principle exceed 120 kW any time - by raising exhaust pressure and so reducing crankshaft power
this might imo increase PU efficiency - but would need a raised K power/torque and ES limits to benefit properly
and rules allowing multi-stage and VG compressor and turbine would help in this (uninvention of the piston engine)

HPD
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by HPD » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:51 pm

We need an Italian user.
Nessuno ha confermato niente, tuttavia, nella gara di casa della Red Bull in Austria e in Gran Bretagna, la squadra italiana e il motorista del Sol Levante hanno deciso di sfruttare l’occasione dei guai in qualifica e in prova di Hartley per testare delle novità sul propulsore. Un ‘upgrade’, quello di Spielberg, che avrebbe portato alla sostituzione tutti gli elementi della power unit per via di modifiche legate all’hardware. Esperimenti che con ogni probabilità sono stati accelerati anche dall’accordo con Red Bull che vuole avere fin dal primo GP del 2019 un V6 in grado di lottare per le vittorie.
Nobody has confirmed nothing, however, in the contest of house of Red Bull in Austria and Great Britain, the Italian team and the engineer of Sol Levante they have decided to take advantage of the occasion of the troubles in qualification and test of Hartley in order to test of the innovations on the propeller. A “upgrade”, that of Spielberg, that it would have carried to the substitution all the elements of the power unit for via of modifications tied to the hardware. Experiments that in all probability are accelerated also by the agreement with Red Bull that it since wants to have the first GP of a 2019 V6 in a position to fighting for the victories.
https://www.formulapassion.it/motorspor ... 91340.html

Revs84
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Revs84 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:41 pm

HPD wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:51 pm
We need an Italian user.
Nessuno ha confermato niente, tuttavia, nella gara di casa della Red Bull in Austria e in Gran Bretagna, la squadra italiana e il motorista del Sol Levante hanno deciso di sfruttare l’occasione dei guai in qualifica e in prova di Hartley per testare delle novità sul propulsore. Un ‘upgrade’, quello di Spielberg, che avrebbe portato alla sostituzione tutti gli elementi della power unit per via di modifiche legate all’hardware. Esperimenti che con ogni probabilità sono stati accelerati anche dall’accordo con Red Bull che vuole avere fin dal primo GP del 2019 un V6 in grado di lottare per le vittorie.
Nobody has confirmed nothing, however, in the contest of house of Red Bull in Austria and Great Britain, the Italian team and the engineer of Sol Levante they have decided to take advantage of the occasion of the troubles in qualification and test of Hartley in order to test of the innovations on the propeller. A “upgrade”, that of Spielberg, that it would have carried to the substitution all the elements of the power unit for via of modifications tied to the hardware. Experiments that in all probability are accelerated also by the agreement with Red Bull that it since wants to have the first GP of a 2019 V6 in a position to fighting for the victories.
https://www.formulapassion.it/motorspor ... 91340.html
No one has confirmed anything, however, in Red Bull's home race in Austria as well as Great Britain, the Italian team and engine manufacturer of the Rising Sun (Japanese), have decided to take advantage of Hartley's issues in practice and quali to test some updates on the [Propeller? Propulsion?] (Not sure what they are referring to - it could be turbo, engine or mgu-k). The upgrade, which was done in Austria, required a change of all PU components due to the hardware changes involved.

These were experiments which were most probably accelerated in agreement with Red Bull, who from the very first GP in 2019, would like to have a 'V6' which can fight for victories.

Note - I'm not native Italian, but am a proficient user of the language. The term propulsore is quite tricky in this context. Even tried to ask an Italian colleague, but he wasn't sure either. Will try to find out.

techman
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by techman » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:46 pm

^ i guess honda is trying to start early in preparation for 2019, which is a good thing

Revs84
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Revs84 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:48 pm

Revs84 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:41 pm
HPD wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:51 pm
We need an Italian user.
Nessuno ha confermato niente, tuttavia, nella gara di casa della Red Bull in Austria e in Gran Bretagna, la squadra italiana e il motorista del Sol Levante hanno deciso di sfruttare l’occasione dei guai in qualifica e in prova di Hartley per testare delle novità sul propulsore. Un ‘upgrade’, quello di Spielberg, che avrebbe portato alla sostituzione tutti gli elementi della power unit per via di modifiche legate all’hardware. Esperimenti che con ogni probabilità sono stati accelerati anche dall’accordo con Red Bull che vuole avere fin dal primo GP del 2019 un V6 in grado di lottare per le vittorie.


https://www.formulapassion.it/motorspor ... 91340.html
No one has confirmed anything, however, in Red Bull's home race in Austria as well as Great Britain, the Italian team and engine manufacturer of the Rising Sun (Japanese), have decided to take advantage of Hartley's issues in practice and quali to test some updates on the [Propeller? Propulsion?] (Not sure what they are referring to - it could be turbo, engine or mgu-k). The upgrade, which was done in Austria, required a change of all PU components due to the hardware changes involved.

These were experiments which were most probably accelerated in agreement with Red Bull, who from the very first GP in 2019, would like to have a 'V6' which can fight for victories.

Note - I'm not native Italian, but am a proficient user of the language. The term propulsore is quite tricky in this context. Even tried to ask an Italian colleague, but he wasn't sure either. Will try to find out.
Confirmed that in this context, 'propulsore' refers to the Power Unit.

HPD
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by HPD » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:28 pm

Revs84 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:48 pm
Revs84 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:41 pm
No one has confirmed anything, however, in Red Bull's home race in Austria as well as Great Britain, the Italian team and engine manufacturer of the Rising Sun (Japanese), have decided to take advantage of Hartley's issues in practice and quali to test some updates on the [Propeller? Propulsion?] (Not sure what they are referring to - it could be turbo, engine or mgu-k). The upgrade, which was done in Austria, required a change of all PU components due to the hardware changes involved.

These were experiments which were most probably accelerated in agreement with Red Bull, who from the very first GP in 2019, would like to have a 'V6' which can fight for victories.

Note - I'm not native Italian, but am a proficient user of the language. The term propulsore is quite tricky in this context. Even tried to ask an Italian colleague, but he wasn't sure either. Will try to find out.
Confirmed that in this context, 'propulsore' refers to the Power Unit.
Thank @Revs84 +1

Wouter
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Wouter » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:30 pm

Revs84 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:48 pm

Confirmed that in this context, 'propulsore' refers to the Power Unit.

Thanks @Revs84. Does Power Unit means only ICE or all components in this context?
Often means a new PU all components.

Revs84
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Revs84 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:00 pm

Wouter wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:30 pm
Revs84 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:48 pm

Confirmed that in this context, 'propulsore' refers to the Power Unit.

Thanks @Revs84. Does Power Unit means only ICE or all components in this context?
Often means a new PU all components.
The article does not put any reference to which components were a 'test' spec, but we know that at least 2 or possibly more must have been introduced, based on this part:
The upgrade, which was done in Austria, required a change of all PU components due to the hardware changes involved
We've seen in several cases that when a component such as a new turbo is developed, this usually also involves other upgraded components such as mgu-h for example, so this seems to be a similar case. Just doesn't specify 'which' are the components in questions.

Also from the following article, we do know that indeed, Honda added a complete PU to Hartley's pool saying it was a Tactical move:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.motors ... 54162/amp/

Revs84
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Revs84 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:48 pm

Also another article which I'm pretty sure most of you would like to read:

https://sportiva.shueisha.co.jp/clm/mot ... _split_35/

It mostly talks about Gasly's comments in Silverstone, which seems to have annoyed a few people - at least that's my impression from the article. It explains the fact that although it is a given that Honda is 'underpowered', Toro Rosso seems to have been running more downforce than their competitors, thus affecting speed in long straights. Anyway, nothing much new here that we didn't already know :)

The interesting part/s, which we all have been looking forward to (at least I do), comes at the end:
Of course, it is true that the power of Honda is inferior to the power unit of Mercedes AMG and Ferrari's. Not only is it inferior in the normal mode but also the fact that the preliminary mode in which the ignition timing is advanced and the knocking is frequent but the power is twisted has not been put into practical use is also a factor which is widening the difference in the preliminary round.
and the following:
From a realistic viewpoint, no matter how much power scarcity we are crying here, we cannot hope Honda's power up until spec 3 will be introduced at the end of the summer vacation. The solution to be made is to solve the problem in front of it.

Honda focuses on the development of spec 3 and practical application of preliminary mode, Toro Rosso has to proceed with understanding and practical application of aerodynamic package.
My understanding is that by 'preliminary mode' they are referring to the quali mode, which seems to be coming in spec 3? :D

It would be great if we can actually get some help to properly translate this from Japanese. I'm afraid I cannot help with this one, since my Japanese knowledge is only limited to a couple of romanji words. Arigatou gozaimasu :D

ME4ME
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by ME4ME » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:35 pm

The development of Honda's qualifying mode raises the question of how Mobil1 spreads its resources and how Red Bull wants to play this:

- Honda needs Mobil1's full attention to manage knock when applying their qualifying mode. The management of knock and the extent they'll able to control it will determine how much power they will ultimately make. It's in Red Bulls interest to have as good a qualifying mode as possible in 2019. It will benefit both RB teams.

- Red Bull are down on power compared to Renault and Mclaren as a result of running Mobil1 fuel rather than Castrol. Mobil1 needs to catch up through further dyno evaluation and fuel development for the Renault engine. Mobil1's progress will have an emediate effect on Red Bulls performance in 2018.

Personally I think it makes sense for Red Bull to abandon 2018 efforts as soon as the ink on Ricciardo's contract has dried. There is little chance of either improving or falling back in the WCC, they are a solid 3rd. With the 2019 aero changes and a switch of engine supplier they might as well put their focus fully on 2019.