Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Krischnen
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Krischnen » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:55 am

maddim wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:45 am
Sieper wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:35 pm
Yes, but only on the Gasly car (lower power, not low power). According to Gasly they will have 2 tenths (or a bit more) more pace next qualy/race (can vary per circuit off course) but that is what he was missing compared to Hartley this race due to the more reserved mapping according to Gas himselve.
According to Autosport the performance level was not affected. I guess also the same as, it is very strange to have only one PU in different mode as the other.
Well, Autosport is only quoting TR/Honda... so take that with a bit of salt.

I do remember Gasly talking on saturday about some issues they experienced during FP3 and therefor they couldn't run the engine settings they wanted to for qualifying. Hartley didn't have these issues, and probably did qualify with the preferred engine mapping.
Maybe that's what this is all about.

The FIA gave permission to change the mappings during Parc Ferme on grounds of 'reliability'. When they found out this engine mapping also produced more torque, they told Toro Rosso [on the grid] to revert back to the old mapping, as changes to the performance of the engine are not allowed during Parc Ferme.

dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by dren » Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:21 am

maddim wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:45 am
Sieper wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:35 pm
Yes, but only on the Gasly car (lower power, not low power). According to Gasly they will have 2 tenths (or a bit more) more pace next qualy/race (can vary per circuit off course) but that is what he was missing compared to Hartley this race due to the more reserved mapping according to Gas himselve.
According to Autosport the performance level was not affected. I guess also the same as, it is very strange to have only one PU in different mode as the other.
From what I've read, Gasly was having to short shift a bit which cost him a little time. The engine settings were ignition retard settings after shifting.
Honda!

gandharva
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by gandharva » Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:03 pm

If we wanted to be in Q3 in Japan we just needed more power, and Honda has showed that it is possible.
Ouch...

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/sain ... s/3192202/

Alexf1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Alexf1 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:31 pm

Does anyone have an idea what Hondas new combustion process is?

maddim
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by maddim » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:07 pm

Krischnen wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:55 am
maddim wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:45 am
Sieper wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:35 pm
Yes, but only on the Gasly car (lower power, not low power). According to Gasly they will have 2 tenths (or a bit more) more pace next qualy/race (can vary per circuit off course) but that is what he was missing compared to Hartley this race due to the more reserved mapping according to Gas himselve.
According to Autosport the performance level was not affected. I guess also the same as, it is very strange to have only one PU in different mode as the other.
Well, Autosport is only quoting TR/Honda... so take that with a bit of salt.

I do remember Gasly talking on saturday about some issues they experienced during FP3 and therefor they couldn't run the engine settings they wanted to for qualifying. Hartley didn't have these issues, and probably did qualify with the preferred engine mapping.
Maybe that's what this is all about.

The FIA gave permission to change the mappings during Parc Ferme on grounds of 'reliability'. When they found out this engine mapping also produced more torque, they told Toro Rosso [on the grid] to revert back to the old mapping, as changes to the performance of the engine are not allowed during Parc Ferme.
this all sounds very logical.

Bill
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Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:28 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Bill » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:36 pm

All reliability updates improve performance it allows teams to push the engine more fia as usual are full of nonsense,the rules are not applied the same to every team

HPD
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by HPD » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:37 pm

So, every time there is a very big modification in the combustion process the oscillations appear?

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:19 pm

You won't know what resonant frequencies exist until you have all the driveline and the engine coupled together running on track. It's hard enough to predict the resonance in an isolated system, let alone an f1 car. Even aero loading the tires can affect vibrations transmitted through the drive shafts.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Mudflap
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Mudflap » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:50 pm

Well actually it's not that hard, numerical solutions for torsional vibration in reciprocating engines and drivelines have been around since 1920s and have since evolved to the extent that they can capture any relevant behaviour with near perfect accuracy.

Also tire loads are not really relevant since the torsional stiffness of the tire is very low compared to that of the driveline.
How much TQ does it make though?

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:32 am

Mudflap wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:50 pm
Well actually it's not that hard, numerical solutions for torsional vibration in reciprocating engines and drivelines have been around since 1920s and have since evolved to the extent that they can capture any relevant behaviour with near perfect accuracy.

Also tire loads are not really relevant since the torsional stiffness of the tire is very low compared to that of the driveline.
The hubs and wheel bearings take a fair bit of load and have their own resonant frequencies, coupled to the resonance of the tires and the suspension maybe was enough to create unwanted frequencies during upshifts. Obviously guessing, since I'm sure they have a transmission bolted to the engine in whatever dyno they're running. By process of elimination, the only thing left is the driveshafts, hubs and tires. It could also just as easily be corporate speak for the engine has issues and we're still working out the kinks.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Mudflap
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Mudflap » Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:23 pm

Radial load on wheel bearings doesn't change the torsional behaviour of the driveline though.

Based on what we've seen in the Mclaren documentary the first time the gearbox met the engine was just before the track test which leads me to believe Honda do not have the capability to run engine and gearbox on a dyno. It's even more unlikely that STR can do it.
How much TQ does it make though?

Brake Horse Power
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Brake Horse Power » Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:10 pm

I have lost the source, but I am quite sure to have read they test with the STR gearbox attached.

GhostF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by GhostF1 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:24 pm

Mudflap wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:23 pm
Radial load on wheel bearings doesn't change the torsional behaviour of the driveline though.

Based on what we've seen in the Mclaren documentary the first time the gearbox met the engine was just before the track test which leads me to believe Honda do not have the capability to run engine and gearbox on a dyno. It's even more unlikely that STR can do it.
Honda do have the capability. It's been mentioned all season long, even at pre season, that STR were over the moon that they could do dyno testing with the PU and gearbox and make alterations on the fly in Sakura, as opposed to being given a PU in a box and they have to adapt.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13488 ... rs-wouldnt
Pre-season article^

I can't find the articles from post Canada where Tost, Gasly and Hartley mention Honda are using lots of gearboxes for a lot of dyno testing, things are looking good.

The issue was with McLaren, they didn't have the gearbox ready and it was mentioned this was a constant, any new gearbox for eachs eason was not ready until the last minute, and this one was last minute so the engine mated to the gearbox for the first time at McLaren. That should of been a warning sign from the beginning, there was obviously no testing done during the PU design/build with the box attached.

Honda obviously always had the capability to do it in Sakura, and more recently they mentioned post Sochi this year, STR engineers went to Honda's Milton Keynes facility for further testing and calibration with the gearbox to have it ready for Japan. So that's proof they can run both in Milton Keynes, UK as well.

Seems relatively obvious where the kink in the chain regarding synergy calibration in previous years was and how rigid one company must of been.

hasika
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by hasika » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:42 am

Krischnen wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:55 am
maddim wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:45 am
Sieper wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:35 pm
Yes, but only on the Gasly car (lower power, not low power). According to Gasly they will have 2 tenths (or a bit more) more pace next qualy/race (can vary per circuit off course) but that is what he was missing compared to Hartley this race due to the more reserved mapping according to Gas himselve.
According to Autosport the performance level was not affected. I guess also the same as, it is very strange to have only one PU in different mode as the other.
Well, Autosport is only quoting TR/Honda... so take that with a bit of salt.

I do remember Gasly talking on saturday about some issues they experienced during FP3 and therefor they couldn't run the engine settings they wanted to for qualifying. Hartley didn't have these issues, and probably did qualify with the preferred engine mapping.
Maybe that's what this is all about.

The FIA gave permission to change the mappings during Parc Ferme on grounds of 'reliability'. When they found out this engine mapping also produced more torque, they told Toro Rosso [on the grid] to revert back to the old mapping, as changes to the performance of the engine are not allowed during Parc Ferme.
Driveability improved,so FIA thought it would help to improve the performance and told TR to revert back to the old mapping.

McMika98
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by McMika98 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:20 am

GhostF1 wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:24 pm
Mudflap wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:23 pm
Radial load on wheel bearings doesn't change the torsional behaviour of the driveline though.

Based on what we've seen in the Mclaren documentary the first time the gearbox met the engine was just before the track test which leads me to believe Honda do not have the capability to run engine and gearbox on a dyno. It's even more unlikely that STR can do it.
Honda do have the capability.
Infact last month RedBull said Honda requested gearboxes to test on dyno supposedly for next year.