Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Tommy Cookers
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Tommy Cookers » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:57 pm

Mudflap wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:05 pm
PZ we've been talking about torsional vibration specifically. .......
isn't the situation mainly due to the frequency of modulation of clutch torque ?- and the effect of modulation on the PU ?
the clutch being a stiff spring and mass there is a limit to its frequency response

ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ispano6 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:21 am

There didn't seem to be any mechanical changes required for Gasly's FIA mandated detune so the solution apparently is mapping related. As such, perhaps it is a stopgap solution that requires more refining and eventual hardware changes.

I don't know enough about the nature of the oscillations on track to say what the issue was aside from the fluttering sound that is audible from the onboard but it's such a familiar and prevalent sound, even when I drive on the simulator. I wonder if Honda's dyno engineers were actually able to replicate and reproduce those same oscillations on the dyno and not just work on mapping solutions based on simulation of race data. Tanabe-san seemed pretty confident of the fix which gives me hope that they at least understood the issue enough to solve it with mappings.
Pierre also mentioned the new spec3 unit's drivability is worse, as is the low speed torque delivery as noted by several here and also Honda staff. The dyno might be able to replay back all the throttle inputs from the telemetry but I kind of doubt the dyno is dynamic enough to provide feedback on torque delivery and drivability. I do believe driving style and driver input matter, especially when in the heat of the moment and trying to push.

wagnerrbezerra
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by wagnerrbezerra » Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:41 am

https://www.racefans.net/2018/10/16/hon ... out-spent/

“This season we were not as quick in the development as we would have wanted to,” said Yamamoto. “However, recently, everything has been much better, especially regarding the combustion chamber. We have upgraded it, and it’s finally complete, and very successfully complete.”

The spec three power unit was introduced in Russia but not raced as Honda had to address calibration problems. These were not entirely fixed in time for the race in Japan, where the team had to revert to an earlier configuration shortly before the race.
In bar and N.m we trust.

Bandit1216
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Bandit1216 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:25 pm

Hello

Is there anyone who wants to comment on the inter cooler?

http://f1i.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/ ... -honda.jpg

The "black box" on which the purple (red earlier this year) connectors are situated is deemed "air box" several times.

I think this is a water to air inter cooler and when I'm correct, only Renault doesn't use this technique now. One can see 2 air inlets. In earlier pictures one can see the piping from compressor to the "box". On the other side of the box you see 4 pipes coming out where the yellow anodized alu is. I'm wondering whether this is 4 of the 6 inlet "manifold" pipes to the cylinders and one can just not see the other 2, which are probably underneath. Or perhaps these 4 pipes are water inlet/outlet of the inter cooler, and the 6 inlet manifold pipes are not visible and are underneath the black box, probably with the MGU-H in the middle off these six pipes.

Where are the inlet and outlet to cooling water of the engines situated anyway?

Any thoughts on this?
Last edited by Bandit1216 on Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by dren » Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:35 pm

That box is most likely the variable intake length system. It's very similar to what Mercedes uses.
Honda!

ScrewCaptain27
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ScrewCaptain27 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:36 pm

Image
Via FormulaPassion.it
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ringo
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ringo » Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:10 am

Mudflap wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:05 pm
PZ we've been talking about torsional vibration specifically. Yes, there are many other characteristics that can't be replicated on the dyno, I agree (even though oil tank behaviour can be simulated on so called rodeo rigs and turbos are usually ran on gas stands which are adequate for assessing the rotordynamic behaviour).

I don't know what conclusions to draw from this issue other than it is something that should have been spotted before the car ran at the track. It is definitely an integration issue so the responsibility lies with both Honda and TR.
All in all it is probably a fairly minor problem than has been resolved without any hardware changes and minor performance implications.
One thing to remember though Mudflap, your experience may be with conventional combustion and direct injection engines, but it may be possible that these TJI or whatever prechamber you want to call it, engines may have extreme sensitivity to external influences given the delicacy of the combustion.
It may very well be true that inertial forces from the gear box, coupled with traction oscillations, and cornering gs could have some effect on what's happening in the little piston bowl on these engines and these same forces on a contemporary DI engine may not have the same impact on the combustion process.
Of course i don't know the specifics, but i believe it may be some phenomena outside of your experience, given the F1 cars are the only ones with this type of combustion extreme.Give it some thought.

I'm going to get even more imaginative and go as far as to suspect that the combustion is so precise and on the limit that certain vibration can lead to loss of control of the combustion itself and result in detonation.
For Sure!!

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PlatinumZealot » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:19 am

ScrewCaptain27 wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:36 pm
//uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201810 ... 3c560d.jpg
Via FormulaPassion.it
Very compact!! =D>

Smaller than Mercedes gearbox and cylinder heads.
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Snorked
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Snorked » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:17 pm

Matched up the mounting holes, the perspective is off, but you can see it's slightly fatter than last years

Image

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:45 pm

I'm very excited for next year, not only from a power increase and drivability refinement point of view, but also year 3 of improving the manufacturing process. As snorked's post highlights, year 2 was more conservative, now that they've had time to understand where they can improve, where they can push the limits of packaging and weight distribution, I'm sure next year's power unit will fit very nicely in the RB15, and the TR14.
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Sasha
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Sasha » Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:56 am

Honda just released there Sept 2018 R&D Research Papers and one was on their Pre-Chamber Jet Injection for production engine(single cylinder test).

WWW.hondarandd.jp

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:59 am

Sasha wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:56 am
Honda just released there Sept 2018 R&D Research Papers and one was on their Pre-Chamber Jet Injection for production engine(single cylinder test).

WWW.hondarandd.jp

Summary:
"A two-point increase in brake thermal efficiency was achieved over an engine with a brake thermal efficiency of 45% from a previous study by using a single-cylinder gasoline engine adopting pre-chamber jet combustion. These results were achieved with a mechanical compression ratio of 16:1 by optimizing the pre-chamber design, coating the pre-chamber inner walls with thermal insulation, and optimizing the combustion chamber shape, including compression ratio settings. The resulting configuration also achieved NOx emissions of 30 ppm and hydrocarbon emissions of 2000 ppm, which puts it in compliance with SULEV20 emission regulations. In addition, combustion stability was kept to a CPmi of 3% or lower, the rate of in-cylinder pressure increase to 300 kPa/deg or lower, and noise vibration requirements for actual vehicles were satisfied."
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

HPD
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by HPD » Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:40 pm

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loner
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by loner » Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:13 pm

thnx
It Tolls for Thee.

subcritical71
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:58 pm

Quite impressive, thats 45% with the ICE alone (albeit single cylinder test stand).

Edit: that was two points from 45%, so 47%... even more impressive!
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