Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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ian_s
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Joined: 03 Feb 2009, 14:44
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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dren wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 13:06
If it's a comparison between the two packages on the same ICE, then I could see some benefit. It still seems like a lot of extra work when you could just have done it on the dyno.
I wonder what sort of sideways G forces the NSX could generate.
Running components on a track will almost certainly give Honda an insight as to how reliable they will be, and using them on a car that can run endlessly must also be a bonus.

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dren
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Joined: 03 Mar 2010, 14:14

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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They can simulate a race weekend at any track on a dyno.
Honda!

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Big Tea
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Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 20:57

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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dren wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 18:14
They can simulate a race weekend at any track on a dyno.
I think they still smart from the vibrations problem they missed until it was fitted into the car.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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dren
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Joined: 03 Mar 2010, 14:14

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Big Tea wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 20:28
dren wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 18:14
They can simulate a race weekend at any track on a dyno.
I think they still smart from the vibrations problem they missed until it was fitted into the car.
That'd require them to shoehorn in the entire PU drivetrain, with a Red Bull rear into an NSX with F1 wheels and tires, not just "slap" the MGUH onto an NSX turbine(s).
Honda!

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Big Tea
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Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 20:57

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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dren wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 20:34
Big Tea wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 20:28
dren wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 18:14
They can simulate a race weekend at any track on a dyno.
I think they still smart from the vibrations problem they missed until it was fitted into the car.
That'd require them to shoehorn in the entire PU drivetrain, with a Red Bull rear into an NSX with F1 wheels and tires, not just "slap" the MGUH onto an NSX turbine(s).
I think they wil clutch at ant straws in reach. Even if it does no good it probably makes them feel better :mrgreen:

No knowledge is wasted.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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dren wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 20:34
Big Tea wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 20:28
dren wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 18:14
They can simulate a race weekend at any track on a dyno.
I think they still smart from the vibrations problem they missed until it was fitted into the car.
That'd require them to shoehorn in the entire PU drivetrain, with a Red Bull rear into an NSX with F1 wheels and tires, not just "slap" the MGUH onto an NSX turbine(s).
They can use a non-homologated engine if they like, and slap a RedBull drive train on there...
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Bandit1216
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Joined: 05 Oct 2018, 16:55
Location: Netherlands

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ian_s wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 16:41
dren wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 13:06
If it's a comparison between the two packages on the same ICE, then I could see some benefit. It still seems like a lot of extra work when you could just have done it on the dyno.
I wonder what sort of sideways G forces the NSX could generate.
Running components on a track will almost certainly give Honda an insight as to how reliable they will be, and using them on a car that can run endlessly must also be a bonus.
Will surely not even be close. I was calculating a bit with some co workers the other day. Rubber to asphalt
friction coefficient is about 1 according to the net. It might be somewhere near 1.3 with a lot of rubber on the track?? Even if you assume 1,5 coefficient and 1,5 down force to weight ratio on the NSX, which are both high assumptions IMO, they can get to 2,25 G. Not even close to F1.

I think G-force is the one thing quite different on track vs dyno though.
But just suppose it weren't hypothetical.

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ian_s
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Joined: 03 Feb 2009, 14:44
Location: Medway Towns

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Bandit1216 wrote:
06 Dec 2018, 09:00
ian_s wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 16:41
dren wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 13:06
If it's a comparison between the two packages on the same ICE, then I could see some benefit. It still seems like a lot of extra work when you could just have done it on the dyno.
I wonder what sort of sideways G forces the NSX could generate.
Running components on a track will almost certainly give Honda an insight as to how reliable they will be, and using them on a car that can run endlessly must also be a bonus.
Will surely not even be close. I was calculating a bit with some co workers the other day. Rubber to asphalt
friction coefficient is about 1 according to the net. It might be somewhere near 1.3 with a lot of rubber on the track?? Even if you assume 1,5 coefficient and 1,5 down force to weight ratio on the NSX, which are both high assumptions IMO, they can get to 2,25 G. Not even close to F1.

I think G-force is the one thing quite different on track vs dyno though.
2G would still give better info than the maximum 1G on a dyno

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Craigy
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Joined: 10 Nov 2009, 10:20

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ian_s wrote:
06 Dec 2018, 17:19
Bandit1216 wrote:
06 Dec 2018, 09:00
ian_s wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 16:41

I wonder what sort of sideways G forces the NSX could generate.
Running components on a track will almost certainly give Honda an insight as to how reliable they will be, and using them on a car that can run endlessly must also be a bonus.
Will surely not even be close. I was calculating a bit with some co workers the other day. Rubber to asphalt
friction coefficient is about 1 according to the net. It might be somewhere near 1.3 with a lot of rubber on the track?? Even if you assume 1,5 coefficient and 1,5 down force to weight ratio on the NSX, which are both high assumptions IMO, they can get to 2,25 G. Not even close to F1.

I think G-force is the one thing quite different on track vs dyno though.
2G would still give better info than the maximum 1G on a dyno
We've been around this discussion before. There are dynoes that can give more than 1G on a gimbal.

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godlameroso
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Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Hard to do it sustained, nevertheless point taken. Would G forces still be a concern? I'm sure the baffling on the oil tank isn't an issue any more. The engine mated to the rear end, and the torsional forces involved, and how they affect the resonance of the transmission shafts on the crank, and the rest of the ICE is probably a bigger priority. I think they realized this while working together this year(Honda/Red Bull), so all of this has already been taken into account. They now have 3 different factories with dynos all running trying different things. They also have a works partnership with a large petrochemical company to help things along, something they didn't have with McLaren.
Saishū kōnā

GhostF1
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Joined: 30 Aug 2016, 04:11

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Craigy wrote:
06 Dec 2018, 18:28
ian_s wrote:
06 Dec 2018, 17:19
Bandit1216 wrote:
06 Dec 2018, 09:00


Will surely not even be close. I was calculating a bit with some co workers the other day. Rubber to asphalt
friction coefficient is about 1 according to the net. It might be somewhere near 1.3 with a lot of rubber on the track?? Even if you assume 1,5 coefficient and 1,5 down force to weight ratio on the NSX, which are both high assumptions IMO, they can get to 2,25 G. Not even close to F1.

I think G-force is the one thing quite different on track vs dyno though.
2G would still give better info than the maximum 1G on a dyno
We've been around this discussion before. There are dynoes that can give more than 1G on a gimbal.
What has also been discussed at length is sustained G forces. It is extremely difficult to properly simulate accurate sustained G forces on a dyno, most processes involve heavy use of computer estimations from sim programs to fill in the gaps.
This was talked about at length when Honda discovered issues with their 2017 oil tank design on the track that were not seen on the dyno which was followed by a lengthy discussion about computer simulation and replicating accurate fluid slosh dynamics and the challenges involved with that..

gruntguru
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Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Dynos that simulate cornering only tilt the engine so they are simulating not the g forces but the ANGLE resulting from cornering forces. 1g cornering (plus 1g gravity) results in a 45* angle and a magnitude of 1.41g. The tilting dyno can replicate the 45* angle but the magnitude is still 1g (gravity). It probably doesn't matter much - the higher force only affects things like internal stresses, moving parts in the engine and flow involving mixtures with different densities (eg bubbles). The angle matters a lot because pickups that should be submerged can suddenly be sucking air and vice versa. Under 4g cornering the angle of fluid in a reservoir will be about 76* to the horizontal - almost vertical!!!
je suis charlie

GhostF1
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Joined: 30 Aug 2016, 04:11

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Just linking another Abiteboul stab that lacks any technical fact. Basically insinuating that because TR finished behind Renault, the Honda PU is obviously worse :lol:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/renault-r ... ing-honda/

“Red Bull never tire of telling how good Honda is compared to us.

“May I state that Toro Rosso is still behind us?”


This guy is amazing.

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Bandit1216
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Joined: 05 Oct 2018, 16:55
Location: Netherlands

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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GhostF1 wrote:
07 Dec 2018, 00:57
Just linking another Abiteboul stab that lacks any technical fact. Basically insinuating that because TR finished behind Renault, the Honda PU is obviously worse :lol:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/renault-r ... ing-honda/

“Red Bull never tire of telling how good Honda is compared to us.

“May I state that Toro Rosso is still behind us?”


This guy is amazing.
He's stupid. RB is 2 secs faster than Williams. So is the renault better than the Merc then? How can you be so stupid and still be in F1.
But just suppose it weren't hypothetical.

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Toro rosso is the fastest Honda chassis so he is well within reason!
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