Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
hurril
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by hurril » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:45 am

saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:07 am
The FIA did not start writing rules/regulations with the advent of the new 2014 1.6l turbo hybrid power unit. There is a difference between a new rule and a rule change, adding or subtracting things to that rule. Starting 2014 formula 1 regulations shifted drastically. Drastic changes to ICE combustion system introducing “direct injection” (DI). Up to 2013 only port (MPFI) injection at max 100 bar fueling system was allowed, “5.10.2 only one fuel injector per cylinder which must inject directly into the side or top of inlet port”. So position of injector was limited to upper side (upstream of inlet port-valve). But for 2014 this restriction is left out. So, while previously direct injection has been specifically excluded with injector positioning limit, starting 2014 it must be the only way to go. Direct injection has been made compulsory. With regulation 5.10.2 now stating “there may be one direct injector per cylinder and no injectors are permitted upstream of intake valve or downstream of exhaust valve. So position of injector is fixed inside cylinder. The above new fueling rule which dictates injector position totally excluded the use of the original Mahle TJI combustion system were both injection and ignition starts combustion in a pre-chamber. But later it was said that a modified version without injector in it was adapted, if it was it is nothing more than a spark-plug masking system, because a compression ratio of 16:1 or more will be very hard pushed to reach combustion chamber space-wise, when taking into consideration the valve events needed to run at 10500RPM max power speed while being able to idle at 4000RPM.
Materials allowed for pistons as described in FIA rule 5.17.1 as aluminum alloy has not changed, and that excludes the use of “iron based” material being used. But added to it is “pistons must respect article 5.16 (material and construction). My previous post about the allowed materials alloyed was lifted from a discourse at a symposium by a Mercedes FI piston specialist around 2012-13.
This is just asemic writing. What is your point? Who or what are you contradicting? Are you bringing new information about something or to someone?

rgava
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by rgava » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:19 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:07 am
Materials allowed for pistons as described in FIA rule 5.17.1 as aluminum alloy has not changed, and that excludes the use of “iron based” material being used. But added to it is “pistons must respect article 5.16 (material and construction).
5.17 Materials and construction – Components :
5.17.1 Pistons must respect Article 5.16. Titanium alloys are not permitted.
5.17.2 Piston pins must be manufactured from an iron based alloy and must be machined from a
single piece of material.
5.16 Materials and construction – General :
5.16.1 Unless explicitly permitted for a specific application, the following materials may not be used anywhere on the power unit :
a) Magnesium based alloys.
b) Metal Matrix Composites (MMC’s).
c) Intermetallic materials.
d) Alloys containing more than 5% by weight of Platinum, Ruthenium, Iridium or Rhenium.
e) Copper based alloys containing more than 2.75% Beryllium.
f) Any other alloy class containing more than 0.25% Beryllium.
g) Tungsten base alloys.
h) Ceramics and ceramic matrix composites.
The restrictions in Article 5.16.1 do not apply to coatings provided the total coating thickness does not exceed 25% of the section thickness of the underlying base material in all axes. In all cases, other than under Article 5.16.3(b), the relevant coating must not exceed 0.8mm.
Where the coating is based on Gold, Platinum, Ruthenium, Iridium or Rhenium, the coating thickness must not exceed 0.035mm.
5.16.3 The restrictions in Article 5.16.1(h) do not apply to the following applications :
a) Any component whose primary purpose is for electrical or thermal insulation.
b) Any coating whose primary purpose is for thermal insulation of the outside of the exhaust system.
5.16.4 Magnesium based alloys, where permitted, must be available on a non-exclusive basis and under normal commercial terms to all competitors. Only those alloys covered by ISO16220 or ISO3116 and approved by the FIA may be used.
You have most of us tired repeating the same wrong statements about the rules again and again.
I cannot downvote you, but be sure I'll do it if I can.

Please inform yourself before insisting on your wrong statements.

Nothing on the Formula One Rules excludes the use of steel pistons.

subcritical71
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:24 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:07 am
Materials allowed for pistons as described in FIA rule 5.17.1 as aluminum alloy has not changed, and that excludes the use of “iron based” material being used. But added to it is “pistons must respect article 5.16 (material and construction). My previous post about the allowed materials alloyed was lifted from a discourse at a symposium by a Mercedes FI piston specialist around 2012-13.
This makes sense because in 2013 the rules stated;
2013 Formula One Technical Regulations - dated 5.12.12
5.17 Materials and construction – Components :

5.17.1 Pistons must be manufactured from an aluminium alloy which is either Al-Si ; Al-Cu ; Al-Mg or
Al-Zn based.
From 2014 and onwards no such restrictions have existed.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PlatinumZealot » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:37 pm

Why was my post deleted about warning SS about posting wrong information?!!

I get punished for reminding him of the forum rules?!!

A very sad state of affairs.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

bigblue
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by bigblue » Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:07 am

There's also been pages and pages of stuff unrelated (directly) to Honda engines, so it's all off-topic ! Isn't there an F1 hybrid-engine formula thread somewhere this can all carry on in ?

subcritical71
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:17 pm

bigblue wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:07 am
There's also been pages and pages of stuff unrelated (directly) to Honda engines, so it's all off-topic ! Isn't there an F1 hybrid-engine formula thread somewhere this can all carry on in ?
As long as the mods decide to censure the replies and not the source of the off-topic I’m not sure your going to get very far. There was a topic created for just this type of situation here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27523

mzso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by mzso » Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:57 pm

HPD wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:53 pm
For example, during the last three seasons in the MGU-H system, almost 1.3 mega joules per round of electricity were won.
What? What round? Won from where?
HPD wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:53 pm
In collaboration with Brembo, the ability of the MGU-K has also been boosted.
What does brembo have to do with the MGU-K? The manufacture disks and pads, not electric motors/generators.

Never mind. I realize now that this is straight up google translation. So it won't be human comprehensible.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Tommy Cookers » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:14 pm

mzso wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:57 pm
What does brembo have to do with the MGU-K? The manufacture disks and pads, not electric motors/generators.
the brakes (Brembo ?) control valve varies brake line pressure in part according to K (generation) braking torque ?
there is more generated energy recovery if the K torque is varied - this complicates the brake control task

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:02 pm

But Tommy explaning “Brembo brakes/brake by wire hydraulic pressure valve/MG-K” an explanation which I agree with. Is off-topic even so you are not the one starting it but just responding to someone else. Some are very allergic to off-topics, just look at what happened to me when I responded to someone pushing-out the use of steel pistons.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PlatinumZealot » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:43 pm

mzso wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:57 pm

HPD wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:53 pm
In collaboration with Brembo, the ability of the MGU-K has also been boosted.
What does brembo have to do with the MGU-K? The manufacture disks and pads, not electric motors/generators.

Never mind. I realize now that this is straight up google translation. So it won't be human comprehensible.
Huh?
Reconsider your line of thinking there... MGUK and the brakes are like siblings.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:46 pm

If permitted because this is out of topic, but still regards piston material of which might interest some, I would like to share an anecdote from my jotted-down old notes of the past. This anecdote goes to show how big a say GP drivers of the time had for anything to do with the racing cars they drove. In 1913 pistons were made of cast iron. One aero engine firm had entered an engine with aluminum made pistons in the 1913 Kaiserpreis aero engine competition but was refused entry on the grounds that a metal with such a low melting point couldn’t possibly stand up to engine combustion temperatures. In 1914 Mercedes (and note no ‘Benz’ here) build aluminum pistons for their 18/100 4.5-litre four (works type M93654) and tested them with complete satisfaction. The final decision as to whether to use them was left to the 3 drivers of whom doubled as master mechanics at the time. They elected to use the proven iron pistons, with some opting to use one and some two brass rings bellow the gudgeon pin.

MarcJ
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by MarcJ » Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:18 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:02 pm
But Tommy explaning “Brembo brakes/brake by wire hydraulic pressure valve/MG-K” an explanation which I agree with. Is off-topic even so you are not the one starting it but just responding to someone else. Some are very allergic to off-topics, just look at what happened to me when I responded to someone pushing-out the use of steel pistons.
Steel pistons are allowed and used. Steel is not covered by the exotic materials rule. They're manufacturing process may be exotic but that's not regulated.

Coatings may be regulated.

MarcJ
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by MarcJ » Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:36 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:34 pm
(1) "aluminum alloy which is either" just keep reading on and you will see why steel pistons are not compatible with technical rules.
(2) no it was not Fred Turk, it was one of the top speculators in the F1 media that pushed the use of Mahle TJI in FI, and he did that within a week of havening first pushed out and than retracted the use of HCCI in F1.
No, TJI was developed from HAJI here in Oz, by Harry Watson professor at Melbourne University, Australia formally of Cosworth.
HAJI hydrogen assisted jet ignition was then developed by William Attard at Melbourne University formally working in the Bishop rotary valve engine development in Sydney where Harry Watson did the 3D Combustion CFD for the BRV in part to optimize the dual spark plugs ignition and squish flow creating a larger central oval flame that a single central plug could working in with the dual cross tumble turbulence.

Dr. Bill Attard and Dr. Louise Toulson (his future wife) developed HAJI to work with liquids calling it TJI and patenting it.

Professor Watson retired.

Mercedes HPE formally Ilmor who partnered with Bishop on the rotary valve developed their new hybrid power plant with TJI from day one.

Which country Prof Watson resided after he retired during Mercedes HPE developing the new power plant is your guess.

Mahle power train developments employed Bill Attard to develop TJI into a product.

Mahle and Mercedes HPE down the road from one another.


Either way Mercedes HPE/Ilmor got their revenge back with another Oz innovation after the banning of the BRV "As a matter of urgency to avoid competition"

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:04 pm

MarcJ wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:36 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:34 pm
(1) "aluminum alloy which is either" just keep reading on and you will see why steel pistons are not compatible with technical rules.
(2) no it was not Fred Turk, it was one of the top speculators in the F1 media that pushed the use of Mahle TJI in FI, and he did that within a week of havening first pushed out and than retracted the use of HCCI in F1.
No, TJI was developed from HAJI here in Oz, by Harry Watson professor at Melbourne University, Australia formally of Cosworth.
HAJI hydrogen assisted jet ignition was then developed by William Attard at Melbourne University formally working in the Bishop rotary valve engine development in Sydney where Harry Watson did the 3D Combustion CFD for the BRV in part to optimize the dual spark plugs ignition and squish flow creating a larger central oval flame that a single central plug could working in with the dual cross tumble turbulence.

Dr. Bill Attard and Dr. Louise Toulson (his future wife) developed HAJI to work with liquids calling it TJI and patenting it.

Professor Watson retired.

Mercedes HPE formally Ilmor who partnered with Bishop on the rotary valve developed their new hybrid power plant with TJI from day one.

Which country Prof Watson resided after he retired during Mercedes HPE developing the new power plant is your guess.

Mahle power train developments employed Bill Attard to develop TJI into a product.

Mahle and Mercedes HPE down the road from one another.


Either way Mercedes HPE/Ilmor got their revenge back with another Oz innovation after the banning of the BRV "As a matter of urgency to avoid competition"
How does the current F1 version operate, is it a passive shroud over plug pre-chamber?
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:34 pm

MarcJ. While your opinion/s is/are respected It just happens that I do not agree.