Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:41 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:04 pm
MarcJ wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:36 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:34 pm
(1) "aluminum alloy which is either" just keep reading on and you will see why steel pistons are not compatible with technical rules.
(2) no it was not Fred Turk, it was one of the top speculators in the F1 media that pushed the use of Mahle TJI in FI, and he did that within a week of havening first pushed out and than retracted the use of HCCI in F1.
No, TJI was developed from HAJI here in Oz, by Harry Watson professor at Melbourne University, Australia formally of Cosworth.
HAJI hydrogen assisted jet ignition was then developed by William Attard at Melbourne University formally working in the Bishop rotary valve engine development in Sydney where Harry Watson did the 3D Combustion CFD for the BRV in part to optimize the dual spark plugs ignition and squish flow creating a larger central oval flame that a single central plug could working in with the dual cross tumble turbulence.

Dr. Bill Attard and Dr. Louise Toulson (his future wife) developed HAJI to work with liquids calling it TJI and patenting it.

Professor Watson retired.

Mercedes HPE formally Ilmor who partnered with Bishop on the rotary valve developed their new hybrid power plant with TJI from day one.

Which country Prof Watson resided after he retired during Mercedes HPE developing the new power plant is your guess.

Mahle power train developments employed Bill Attard to develop TJI into a product.

Mahle and Mercedes HPE down the road from one another.


Either way Mercedes HPE/Ilmor got their revenge back with another Oz innovation after the banning of the BRV "As a matter of urgency to avoid competition"
How does the current F1 version operate, is it a passive shroud over plug pre-chamber?
I expressed myself of it in a previous post (if it is being used) as nothing more than a "sperk-plug musking". as i said, achieving 16:1 or more compression ratio with the neccessary valve timing for running these sort of power speeds is very difficult indded combustion chamber space-wise.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PlatinumZealot » Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:20 am

MarcJ wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:18 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:02 pm
But Tommy explaning “Brembo brakes/brake by wire hydraulic pressure valve/MG-K” an explanation which I agree with. Is off-topic even so you are not the one starting it but just responding to someone else. Some are very allergic to off-topics, just look at what happened to me when I responded to someone pushing-out the use of steel pistons.
Steel pistons are allowed and used. Steel is not covered by the exotic materials rule. They're manufacturing process may be exotic but that's not regulated.

Coatings may be regulated.
No proof of this yet in F1 to public knowledge. There are many threads analyzing the feasibility of steel pistons in F1. THe high piston speeds and temperatures involved VS diesel lead to one conclusion. Oil coking and sticking rings is still a problem yet to be solved in petrol steel pistons at any moderate rpm and engine life.

If you have any papers or data please share.. This is something we have been searching for to see the implementation.

At my new job we deal with large slow speed 2 stroke diesels.. steel pistons with chrome landings.. and even with dedicated piston lubricant separate from the crank case.. ring temperatures and oil coking is still a pain in the butt.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:25 am

On the one hand, “steel pistons are allowed and used”. Yet on the other hand, “no proof of this yet in F1 to public knowledge”.
“steel is not covered by exotic materials rule” How can a non-exotic material be covered by an exotic materials rule?.
5.16, the must be respected ‘additional’ rule excludes the use of some exotic materials which weren’t listed before plus regulates the use of coatings (material and construction).
Also further up/back (4 posts). "either way Mercedes HPE/Ilmor got their revenge back with another Oz innovation after the banning of BRV as a matter of urgency to avoid competition". The use back than of AIBeMET AM162 did not infringe any F1 technical rule. Mario Illien using Mercedes money for obvious reasons produced them in-house machining them out of the solid, yes that was the first time that ALBeMET AM162 pistons were used in a F1 engine, but not the first time ALBeMET AM162 was used on a formula 1 car, its first use was by Brembo in their brake caliper frame as recommended/suggested to them by Osamu Goto then working for FERRARI IN 1992-93, Also the first ever pistons known to have been produced out of AIBeMET AM162 was before 1969 by Porsche when they produced a set of experimental piston for an undisclosed east European military block. I have many exact details noted of this here interesting material use subject.

gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by gruntguru » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:27 am

saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:34 pm
MarcJ. While your opinion/s is/are respected It just happens that I do not agree.
You don't agree with what?

MarcJ made several points and I agree with most of them. (Certainly all the technical ones.) Are you saying you disagree with all of them?

There is no point in simply stating that you disagree. When I disagree with something you say, I make the case for my opinion. I don't care if you still disagree - my aim is to present the alternatives so others here can weigh the arguments and form their own opinions.

You have read my opinion on TJI and the modified version that is used in F1. There is no way these engines can run the ultra lean mixture, the high compression ratio and the extreme peak pressures we know they are running - without a fast-burn, stratified charge system like TJI. There is no other concept that can do what TJI does.
je suis charlie

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:18 am

gruntguru wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:27 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:34 pm
MarcJ. While your opinion/s is/are respected It just happens that I do not agree.
You don't agree with what?

MarcJ made several points and I agree with most of them. (Certainly all the technical ones.) Are you saying you disagree with all of them?

There is no point in simply stating that you disagree. When I disagree with something you say, I make the case for my opinion. I don't care if you still disagree - my aim is to present the alternatives so others here can weigh the arguments and form their own opinions.

You have read my opinion on TJI and the modified version that is used in F1. There is no way these engines can run the ultra lean mixture, the high compression ratio and the extreme peak pressures we know they are running - without a fast-burn, stratified charge system like TJI. There is no other concept that can do what TJI does.
Yes i have read your opinion on TJI and be assured that i respect your opinion even if not agreeing.
I too made my my point when I disagreed with anything you said, and I too made my case for my opinion, also I too doesnt care if you still disagree.
Mr Moderator who ever that might be moderating right now, i consider letting this answer to stand as being the only just and fair way.

Dr. Acula
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Dr. Acula » Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:39 am

godlameroso wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:04 pm
MarcJ wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:36 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:34 pm
(1) "aluminum alloy which is either" just keep reading on and you will see why steel pistons are not compatible with technical rules.
(2) no it was not Fred Turk, it was one of the top speculators in the F1 media that pushed the use of Mahle TJI in FI, and he did that within a week of havening first pushed out and than retracted the use of HCCI in F1.
No, TJI was developed from HAJI here in Oz, by Harry Watson professor at Melbourne University, Australia formally of Cosworth.
HAJI hydrogen assisted jet ignition was then developed by William Attard at Melbourne University formally working in the Bishop rotary valve engine development in Sydney where Harry Watson did the 3D Combustion CFD for the BRV in part to optimize the dual spark plugs ignition and squish flow creating a larger central oval flame that a single central plug could working in with the dual cross tumble turbulence.

Dr. Bill Attard and Dr. Louise Toulson (his future wife) developed HAJI to work with liquids calling it TJI and patenting it.

Professor Watson retired.

Mercedes HPE formally Ilmor who partnered with Bishop on the rotary valve developed their new hybrid power plant with TJI from day one.

Which country Prof Watson resided after he retired during Mercedes HPE developing the new power plant is your guess.

Mahle power train developments employed Bill Attard to develop TJI into a product.

Mahle and Mercedes HPE down the road from one another.


Either way Mercedes HPE/Ilmor got their revenge back with another Oz innovation after the banning of the BRV "As a matter of urgency to avoid competition"
How does the current F1 version operate, is it a passive shroud over plug pre-chamber?
I would say that's what it is. From a purely technical standpoint, it isn't really fancy stuff and the actual idea to use a prechamber this way isn't new at all.
Honda already did something very similar with their CVCC engine in the late 70's. Basically it used the same idea, creating a richer mixture around the sparkplug in small chamber which then ignited the main chamber. What we see in F1 now is basically using the same idea again but in conjunction with modern fuel injection and in a way to get around the limitations set by the technical regulations in F1.
Thing is though as it's so often with such stuff, although the idea is fairly simple in itself, it's not easy to get it working properly.

henry
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by henry » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:24 pm

Dr. Acula wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:39 am
godlameroso wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:04 pm
MarcJ wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:36 pm

No, TJI was developed from HAJI here in Oz, by Harry Watson professor at Melbourne University, Australia formally of Cosworth.
HAJI hydrogen assisted jet ignition was then developed by William Attard at Melbourne University formally working in the Bishop rotary valve engine development in Sydney where Harry Watson did the 3D Combustion CFD for the BRV in part to optimize the dual spark plugs ignition and squish flow creating a larger central oval flame that a single central plug could working in with the dual cross tumble turbulence.

Dr. Bill Attard and Dr. Louise Toulson (his future wife) developed HAJI to work with liquids calling it TJI and patenting it.

Professor Watson retired.

Mercedes HPE formally Ilmor who partnered with Bishop on the rotary valve developed their new hybrid power plant with TJI from day one.

Which country Prof Watson resided after he retired during Mercedes HPE developing the new power plant is your guess.

Mahle power train developments employed Bill Attard to develop TJI into a product.

Mahle and Mercedes HPE down the road from one another.


Either way Mercedes HPE/Ilmor got their revenge back with another Oz innovation after the banning of the BRV "As a matter of urgency to avoid competition"
How does the current F1 version operate, is it a passive shroud over plug pre-chamber?
I would say that's what it is. From a purely technical standpoint, it isn't really fancy stuff and the actual idea to use a prechamber this way isn't new at all.
Honda already did something very similar with their CVCC engine in the late 70's. Basically it used the same idea, creating a richer mixture around the sparkplug in small chamber which then ignited the main chamber. What we see in F1 now is basically using the same idea again but in conjunction with modern fuel injection and in a way to get around the limitations set by the technical regulations in F1.
Thing is though as it's so often with such stuff, although the idea is fairly simple in itself, it's not easy to get it working properly.
I think you’ll find it’s different. The clue is in “Turbulent Jet”. The Honda solution was stratified charge. It did not generate high intensity jets as ignition sources.

Conceptually TJI is simple. Making it work under the current F1 rules is anything but.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by gruntguru » Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:31 pm

henry wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:24 pm
Dr. Acula wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:39 am
godlameroso wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:04 pm


How does the current F1 version operate, is it a passive shroud over plug pre-chamber?
I would say that's what it is. From a purely technical standpoint, it isn't really fancy stuff and the actual idea to use a prechamber this way isn't new at all.
Honda already did something very similar with their CVCC engine in the late 70's. Basically it used the same idea, creating a richer mixture around the sparkplug in small chamber which then ignited the main chamber. What we see in F1 now is basically using the same idea again but in conjunction with modern fuel injection and in a way to get around the limitations set by the technical regulations in F1.
Thing is though as it's so often with such stuff, although the idea is fairly simple in itself, it's not easy to get it working properly.
I think you’ll find it’s different. The clue is in “Turbulent Jet”. The Honda solution was stratified charge. It did not generate high intensity jets as ignition sources.

Conceptually TJI is simple. Making it work under the current F1 rules is anything but.
Totally agree. TJI is very different to CVCC. Pre-chamber volume is much smaller. CVCC concept was to "stir" and ignite the main chamber. TJI creates a distributed ignition source simultaneously throughout the entire chamber.
je suis charlie

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PlatinumZealot » Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:55 pm

What is the TJI "Musk" Idea MarcJ is talking about?
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by gruntguru » Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:03 am

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:55 pm
What is the TJI "Musk" Idea MarcJ is talking about?
It was SS who used the term "sperk plug musking" meaning (I think) "spark plug masking".
je suis charlie

Snorked
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Snorked » Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:48 am


PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PlatinumZealot » Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:54 am

If my ears even know the difference between 3, 4, 5 and 6 cylinder firing i would say that is what Honda is definitely doing to warm the engine up. You can hear the transitions from rough to smooth and back as different cylinders are activated and deactivated. Was already discussed in this thread but is nice to hear it on the warm up or whatever.

You can see a some compromise was made on the 3 into 1 exhaust gast collectors. The side branches come in a steep angle to keep the volume at the back of the engine small. This is likely from the engine being more backwards located because of front conpressor vesus the old renault engine with compressor at the back? Next year we should see a better cooling plan to give more space.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

Bandit1216
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Bandit1216 » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:01 am

Perhaps they are are also switching between mgu-h powering, mgu-h harvesting and waste gate open (mgu-h off) to warm everything thing up evenly? To me it sounds like they are changing ign timing and idle air a lot.

henry
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by henry » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:14 am

gruntguru wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:31 pm

.... TJI is very different to CVCC. Pre-chamber volume is much smaller.
I feel we ought to be able to calculate the volume. Mahle say their TJI pre-chamber use 2-3% of the fuel consumed. If I assume the AFR in the pre-chamber is 12:1 and in the main chamber 20:1 I get a volume of 4 to 5cc. That doesn’t include the volume of the fuel which may add a little.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:50 pm

Yes it was me who used the term as nothing more than a “sperk (misspell for spark)-plug musking”. And yes I meant “spark-plug masking”. Something which was used from the very early racing engine of old times, either as an ‘in-build design’ when casting or as a treaded-on adapter. Spark-plug masking/shroud over plug/spark-plug non-fouler/ anti-fouler was first hinted at on here some pages back by Godlameroso.