Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
mzso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:14 pm
mzso wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:57 pm
What does brembo have to do with the MGU-K? The manufacture disks and pads, not electric motors/generators.
the brakes (Brembo ?) control valve varies brake line pressure in part according to K (generation) braking torque ?
there is more generated energy recovery if the K torque is varied - this complicates the brake control task
But I don't see how they would effect the performance of the K. Naturally every PU brakes with the K as much as the power limit of the K allows it, and the rest is provided by the brake discs. Changing anything on the brakes side has no relevance the way I see it.
Decreasing the losses in the K motor/generator for example would be something to help collect more energy. (Or decrease weight/size/cooling)

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Brembo knows how much energy it takes to slow the car down more than anyone so they have a lot of models that can predict this... Not to mention they can easily just use the data they get from the teams' simulators.. Remember the brakes are always being developed so this communication is between them and the teams. Data from simulator.. Dyno and track testing... Brembo will need very detailed information on how their brake works with the whole car.
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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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mzso wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:56 am
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:14 pm
mzso wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:57 pm
What does brembo have to do with the MGU-K? The manufacture disks and pads, not electric motors/generators.
the brakes (Brembo ?) control valve varies brake line pressure in part according to K (generation) braking torque ?
there is more generated energy recovery if the K torque is varied - this complicates the brake control task
But I don't see how they would effect the performance of the K. Naturally every PU brakes with the K as much as the power limit of the K allows it, and the rest is provided by the brake discs. Changing anything on the brakes side has no relevance the way I see it.
Decreasing the losses in the K motor/generator for example would be something to help collect more energy. (Or decrease weight/size/cooling)
As the cars becoming electric powered brembo or any other brake systems manufacturer can not stay away from this kind of tech O think.

Front brakes didn't involved with regeneration in F1. So discs are making most of the job not rest of it.
You know that drivers set brake bias from turn to turn between rear and front. I think they choose to use rear brake more then they used to use it before the era, at all turns. But turns which are good for more rear brake usage might be better regeneration places. At race sim I think they calculate best for all turns and make settings according to it

Snorked
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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It doesn't look like we'll be getting the Honda Amazon freebie this year: https://serakota.blog.so-net.ne.jp/2018-12-19

The Porsche 919 is the main feature and cover :(
Image

I brought the F1 power unit, RA 618H, in a bumper on the 8th day on the delivery date. It is arranged at the same angle as RA 717 H of 2017.

Three days before shooting, I interviewed HRD Sakura and interviewed engineers who are involved in the development of Honda RA 618H.

In what concept developed, confronted with what kind of problems, overcome it, and carefully answered how we evolved during the season.

Image

aral
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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This thread appears to be getting into a personal spat between some contributors who do not agree with each other. Remember, posters are entitled with their own opinions, some of which may be right and some may be incorrect, but this does not mean that you have to continue arguing on a good technical thread.
Please calm down and be less confrontational, especially in this Christmas period ( and afterwards, of course !)

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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We are approaching 1000 pages. Let reach there in a good way guys.
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saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:04 pm
We are approaching 1000 pages. Let reach there in a good way guys.
Only by respecting each other's opinion irispective if we agree or not.

gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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etusch wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:54 am
You know that drivers set brake bias from turn to turn between rear and front. I think they choose to use rear brake more then they used to use it before the era, at all turns.
Off-topic but this raises an interesting issue. With drivers constantly adjusting brake bias from corner to corner, it is probably time for a rule change to allow instantaneous bias adjustment on the fly. Something like fiddle brakes but front-rear rather than left-right. Not sure how it should be interfaced to the driver - perhaps using grip pressure on the steering wheel or perhaps a twist grip. Something like this would open another layer of driver skill and potentially improve the racing - anything that increases the human skill factor as opposed to the dominance of one machine over another.
je suis charlie

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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gruntguru wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:22 pm
etusch wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:54 am
You know that drivers set brake bias from turn to turn between rear and front. I think they choose to use rear brake more then they used to use it before the era, at all turns.
Off-topic but this raises an interesting issue. With drivers constantly adjusting brake bias from corner to corner, it is probably time for a rule change to allow instantaneous bias adjustment on the fly. Something like fiddle brakes but front-rear rather than left-right. Not sure how it should be interfaced to the driver - perhaps using grip pressure on the steering wheel or perhaps a twist grip. Something like this would open another layer of driver skill and potentially improve the racing - anything that increases the human skill factor as opposed to the dominance of one machine over another.
Guru... guru...

They say geniuses think a like and that is so true...

May Introduce you to one of my many innovations in this field. I created this in 2012: "3D-driving"

Thread:
A new way to drive an F1 car? "3D driving"

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14411

Driver controls:
Accelerator Pedal
Brake Pedal
Steering
Assorted buttons and knobs as typical

LIVESuspension control
The steering wheel has two halves, each half can rotate around an axis perpendicular to the steering coloumn.
Left suspension stiffness - by twisting the left side of the wheel forward
Right suspension stiffnes - by twisting the right of of the wheel forward

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gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Nice idea PZ, I have added a post to your thread.

You should try to get that thread moved to this forum where it belongs (definitely comes under "controls").
je suis charlie

carisi2k
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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F1's solution to a problem is to try and find a solution. Other series and specificially the v8 category in Australia just bans the thing instead.

I think that removing engine mapping settings would be good for the category. This way once in parc ferme at the start of Q1 then no settings can be changed to engine performance removing q3 modes.

restless
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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yes, these days too many things are automatically controlled.
make it driver competition once again.
These days the difference between genius driver and mid-level is what? 0.3sec? (alonso-vandoorne)

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dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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carisi2k wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:01 am
F1's solution to a problem is to try and find a solution. Other series and specificially the v8 category in Australia just bans the thing instead.

I think that removing engine mapping settings would be good for the category. This way once in parc ferme at the start of Q1 then no settings can be changed to engine performance removing q3 modes.
Removing PU mapping settings is taking one less thing the driver has control over away. I think they should be left.
Honda!

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dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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restless wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:28 am
yes, these days too many things are automatically controlled.
make it driver competition once again.
These days the difference between genius driver and mid-level is what? 0.3sec? (alonso-vandoorne)
The driver still has an acceleration pedal, a brake pedal, a steering wheel and a manual means of changing gears. If you really want to give more to the driver, maybe we should revert to ignition timing levers on the steering wheel.
Honda!

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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mzso wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:56 am
.... Naturally every PU brakes with the K as much as the power limit of the K allows it, and the rest is provided by the brake discs. Changing anything on the brakes side has no relevance the way I see it......
for the K to brake at the 120 kW power limit the K torque must be continuously varied inversely to the rpm at any moment
Mr Brembo's rear friction braking would need continuous variation in response to this K torque variation
and at some quite low car speed rear tyre grip has fallen so much that rear friction braking could cease
K brake torque (if used alone) must fall at with further fall of rpm and recovery power potential is small
Mr Brembo's rear friction braking would need continuous variation in response to this K torque variation

the (2016 ?) Honda telemetry might suggest a simple recovery of KE via the K ie the 'low-hanging fruit' approach
the further increase of genuine KE recovery that Honda may have implemented isn't simple or easy

this all without regard to any covert benefits to braking or any brake-pedal-on recovery of non-KE