Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PlatinumZealot » Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:28 pm

MarcJ wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:08 pm

KSPG are supplying steel pistons to a OEM for a V6 petrol engine. Now could that be Project One.

There's plenty of published papers on steel piston for gasoline engines published by Ferrari University di Modena. Saverio Barbieri.

Ferrari said they used 3D printed steel pistons at Phillip Island in 2017.
Any information on how they managed cooling the rings, landing and the contact at the liner?
No point of just mentioning stuff. It wont help anyone.
Last edited by PlatinumZealot on Wed Dec 26, 2018 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by dren » Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:32 pm

The Motorfan issue with the 2018 PU comes out tomorrow.
Honda!

MarcJ
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by MarcJ » Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:47 pm

carisi2k wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:01 am
F1's solution to a problem is to try and find a solution. Other series and specificially the v8 category in Australia just bans the thing instead.

I think that removing engine mapping settings would be good for the category. This way once in parc ferme at the start of Q1 then no settings can be changed to engine performance removing q3 modes.
For ICE engines to develop the original computationally efficient hack the map that Moore's law and better sensors should've made short work of and engineers have put the work in for true closed loop model based engine control.

It's stupid standardised ECU rules and general contempt for innovation.

Why we still have them is insane, we have an additional 12 digits of compute power now in a 20 Watt SoC over the early mid '80s.
That's a million million times more.

Also Oz supercars have complete contempt for the fuel they mandate as evidenced by compression ratio limit of 12:1 with E85. Should be a minimum of 16:1 if they got advise from a fuel chemical kinetics engineer.

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:38 pm

Corey Clarke came in a bit late into the F1 speculation race, so he went in headlong into the famous F1 speculation race, in a bit to outdo all before him he lumped all three major speculations pushed by others before him together as being used in F1, namely, steel printed pistons + Mahle JET combustion system + HCCI combustion system.

lio007
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by lio007 » Wed Dec 26, 2018 8:56 pm

HPD wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:24 pm
Image
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For reference, the previous PU:

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Last edited by lio007 on Wed Dec 26, 2018 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Snorked
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Snorked » Wed Dec 26, 2018 8:59 pm

dren wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:32 pm
The Motorfan issue with the 2018 PU comes out tomorrow.
It's out now, but as I said previously, I don't think we'll get a full res freebie off Amazon Kindle as the Porsche is the first feature. So somebody will have to purchase the eBook.

Here you can see it's a 10 page spread - http://www.as-books.jp/books/info.php?no=MFS20181227

ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ispano6 » Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:22 pm

I'll buy the magazine today but won't have scans or much translations done until after I get back to the US.

Here are the F1 topics of this issue:
F1 HONDA RA618Hの開発 (development summary)

Honda F1テクニカルディレクター・田辺豊治インタビュー (interview with TD Tanabe)

F1テクノロジーレビュー2018 (review of 2018 technology)

2018年F1技術動向
パワーユニット(HONDA/MERCEDES-AMG/FERRARI 062 EVO/RENAULT R.E.18)(comparison of technology development path)

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:16 am

MarcJ wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:08 pm
gruntguru wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:27 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:34 pm
MarcJ. While your opinion/s is/are respected It just happens that I do not agree.
You don't agree with what?

MarcJ made several points and I agree with most of them. (Certainly all the technical ones.) Are you saying you disagree with all of them?

There is no point in simply stating that you disagree. When I disagree with something you say, I make the case for my opinion. I don't care if you still disagree - my aim is to present the alternatives so others here can weigh the arguments and form their own opinions.

You have read my opinion on TJI and the modified version that is used in F1. There is no way these engines can run the ultra lean mixture, the high compression ratio and the extreme peak pressures we know they are running - without a fast-burn, stratified charge system like TJI. There is no other concept that can do what TJI does.
KSPG are supplying steel pistons to a OEM for a V6 petrol engine. Now could that be Project One.

There's plenty of published papers on steel piston for gasoline engines published by Ferrari University di Modena. Saverio Barbieri.

Doesn't matter if your combustion of MiLD ultra lean low temperature combustion is in a reciprocating engine or rapid compression machine it's still low temperature below 2000 Kelvin at peak thermal efficiency.
So heat issues of stoichiometry not relevant here.

Ferrari said they used 3D printed steel pistons at Phillip Island in 2017.
Peak gas temperature is >2,600K though.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

carisi2k
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by carisi2k » Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:16 am

The first thing I noticed in the difference between 17 and 18 is the larger air boxes and the different exhust pipe treatment.

dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by dren » Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:17 pm

I bit the bullet and purchased a copy:
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Honda!

dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by dren » Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:21 pm

It looks like they had intercoolers on both sides of the car with the 2018 PU. The 2017 was just on one side. My Japanese pretty much stops at translating Katakana so if some of our more fluent members could translate any good bits I'd appreciate it.
Honda!

lio007
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by lio007 » Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:20 pm

Is there a significantly smaller oiltank on the RA618H?

MarcJ
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by MarcJ » Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:52 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:55 pm
What is the TJI "Musk" Idea MarcJ is talking about?
It's Turbulent Jet Ignition - TJI.

Used by all F1 engines to achieve higher efficiency and lower Combustion temperature running ultra lean, lambda above 1.6.

Hardly Musk like, but actually using advanced models to control engines like those that have proven to be far superior to stupid maps, the computationally efficient hack needed in the early 80s not so much anymore.

MarcJ
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by MarcJ » Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:57 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:16 am
MarcJ wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:08 pm
gruntguru wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:27 am
You don't agree with what?

MarcJ made several points and I agree with most of them. (Certainly all the technical ones.) Are you saying you disagree with all of them?

There is no point in simply stating that you disagree. When I disagree with something you say, I make the case for my opinion. I don't care if you still disagree - my aim is to present the alternatives so others here can weigh the arguments and form their own opinions.

You have read my opinion on TJI and the modified version that is used in F1. There is no way these engines can run the ultra lean mixture, the high compression ratio and the extreme peak pressures we know they are running - without a fast-burn, stratified charge system like TJI. There is no other concept that can do what TJI does.
KSPG are supplying steel pistons to a OEM for a V6 petrol engine. Now could that be Project One.

There's plenty of published papers on steel piston for gasoline engines published by Ferrari University di Modena. Saverio Barbieri.

Doesn't matter if your combustion of MiLD ultra lean low temperature combustion is in a reciprocating engine or rapid compression machine it's still low temperature below 2000 Kelvin at peak thermal efficiency.
So heat issues of stoichiometry not relevant here.

Ferrari said they used 3D printed steel pistons at Phillip Island in 2017.
Peak gas temperature is >2,600K though.
Peak gas temperature is ~1800K at peak thermal efficiency, this is in many optical and laser imaging diagnosis.

ME4ME
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ME4ME » Thu Dec 27, 2018 4:23 pm

Oh nice .. rare picture of the gear case internals there from Toro Rosso. Very nice indeed. Thank you Dren for sharing!