Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
User avatar
PlatinumZealot
460
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

godlameroso wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:55 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:42 am


My analogy is good. You aren't looking at it right. The "power plant" would be the ICE itself.. and the "electric car" would be the battery. You will lose more energy going from engine to mguh to battery to the wheels, than going from engine to straight to the wheels. As I said before you cannot look on it as snapshot in time, but over the length of the lap (energy not power). How much energy do you have and where do you want to use it. The Electric car... the energy is stored and can be released on demand... and can be overall more efficient "over the lap" but in not all cases.
Not even arguing with you, just clarifying, you have a fixed amount of energy and without the electric machines you can't get the efficiency or power from the engine. I agree that fuel is the prime mover, and improving the combustion process is the source of the most tangible gains. In addition to peak power, which is what we're talking about, there's sustained power, as you state, in certain cases it's better to use electric mode. Would the MGU-H be more important on a track like Baku, or Silverstone? I know in places with a lot of full throttle, like Shanghai the Honda engine lacks behind the others. Is the lack due to being unable to harvest enough energy from the MGU-H? Bahrain has a lot of heavy braking so plenty of chance to harvest with MGU-K and H through extra harvest, and the power seemed to be reasonable there.

If harvesting from the MGU-H is a load on the turbine, then does it not also put a load on the exhaust gases, and by extension increase back-pressure? How much power does this increased pumping load cost in terms of crank power? Granted it costs less if you have more ICE power to start, but if you can't harvest enough exhaust energy you will always be at a deployment disadvantage. Deployment isn't just for power, it also affects power delivery and corner entry.
Digging this one back from the grave.

Please see that Ross Brwan's comments on electric vehicles are similar to mine.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.espn.com ... atform=amp
RB: If I'm honest, I don't know. I don't think any of us know where the automotive world is going to be in five years' time. There is a massive enthusiasm for electrified vehicles, but they have massive challenges as well, and is there an evolution that is going to come?

If you look at the way electricity is generated in the UK, the pollution from an electric vehicle is still very similar to a very efficient, small petrol car because that electricity has to be generated somehow. We are not generating the electricity that is needed by renewables in the UK at the moment, and that is with the electricity we are using at the moment. Imagine if everyone used electricity to charge their cars. So there are some massive challenges ahead, and I think there are still avenues with internal combustion engines that are worth pursuing.

User avatar
Bandit1216
5
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:55 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

100 kW to drive the compressor can't be right. Oké, it's quite big and boost is high, but this just can't be true. That means you would need an ordinary 1.6 roadcar engine to drive the compressor wheel. I think someone added a zero.

Also about calculate turbine efficiency. Can we assume it;s a heat engine? A big part of the engender in the exhaust gasses is air speed (kinetic). Not only the temp is dropped over the turbine, but also the speed is dropped though the turbo, right.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
537
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

gruntguru wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:04 am
I assumed the following.
Exhaust temp 1000K
Ambient temp 300K
Exhaust pressure 3 bar (abs)
Turbine efficiency 70%
Exhaust mass flow 0.6 kg/s
Those numbers give a turbine power of 113 kW and heat content of the exhaust at 420 kW.

Working backwards to get turbine power at 170 kW one possibility is 5 bar exhaust pressure and 75% turbine efficiency for a turbine power of 167 kW which is closer to 40% of exhaust energy.
iirc the compressor power corresponding to GG's 3 bar MAP scenario will be about 60 kW
so the exhaust heat content is a plausible fraction of fuel heat

the margin (for recovery) between turbine power and compressor power is relatively independent of MAP
because the compressor power rises greatly with MAP
but the power calculations ignore the 'free supercharge' and 'free power' benefits from inlet and exhaust system effects
these add to the margin for recovery

regarding the compressor power in terms of equivalent motor ....
Mr Hamilton's employer tried almost 80 years ago the (aircraft) HC Anlage scheme wherein ....
two 35 litre engines driving propellers were supercharged by another 35 litre engine driving only a supercharger
the supercharging power required at the pressure ratios needed for use at 45000' 14000m altitude being about 1500 hp

ReoPTy
ReoPTy
-31
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2015 9:44 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Hakinen views

https://www.planetf1.com/news/big-doubt ... ith-honda/
“Honda had a long, really hard learning curve in Formula One and had really tough years with McLaren. They had a hard road.

“I think now they are in a position that they can start bringing in the performance.

“But I really don’t think they’re still in a level on the performance with Ferrari or Mercedes in power terms.

“If you don’t have that, if you have less horsepower in a straight line, it’s difficult to overtake other cars. That’s a fact.

“I still don’t believe they are on a level [in] power.”

User avatar
Wouter
362
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

ReoPTy wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:03 pm
Hakinen views

https://www.planetf1.com/news/big-doubt ... ith-honda/
“Honda had a long, really hard learning curve in Formula One and had really tough years with McLaren. They had a hard road.

“I think now they are in a position that they can start bringing in the performance.

“But I really don’t think they’re still in a level on the performance with Ferrari or Mercedes in power terms.

“If you don’t have that, if you have less horsepower in a straight line, it’s difficult to overtake other cars. That’s a fact.

“I still don’t believe they are on a level [in] power.”
The McLaren ambassador also said :

McLaren ambassador Hakkinen is pleased with the progress of Renault. "When I look at the test results and their work from last winter, I think Renault looks very strong.
The confidence in Renault from the world champion of 1998 and 1999 also means that he can understand Daniel Ricciardo's move.
The former F1 World Champion believes Red Bull may even come to regret walking away from Renault.
He works for McLaren and can of course never say that the Honda engine is now better than the Renault engine that McLaren uses.
After all, they have broken the contract with Honda.

gruntguru
gruntguru
456
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:43 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Bandit1216 wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:40 am
100 kW to drive the compressor can't be right. Oké, it's quite big and boost is high, but this just can't be true. That means you would need an ordinary 1.6 roadcar engine to drive the compressor wheel. I think someone added a zero.
For a compressor with 80% efficiency:
Mass flow (kg/s)  MAP (bar abs)  Compressor Power (kW)
0.5                3.0                69
0.67               4.0               122
0.83               5.0               181
je suis charlie

blueytoo
blueytoo
2
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:37 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Fantasy land comments on PU thermal efficiency in this forum.

See: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13177 ... yno-target

Honda would probably be happy to get a reliable engine with anything near or over 50% thermal efficiency.

gruntguru
gruntguru
456
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:43 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Merc passed the 50% mark in 2017 - all the engines must be there by now.
je suis charlie

User avatar
henry
297
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:49 pm
Location: England

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

blueytoo wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:12 pm
Fantasy land comments on PU thermal efficiency in this forum.

See: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13177 ... yno-target

Honda would probably be happy to get a reliable engine with anything near or over 50% thermal efficiency.
Where? The forum is a very big place, this thread alone is over a thousand pages. What is your precise point so we can all benefit from it?
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

ispano6
ispano6
216
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:56 pm
Location: my playseat

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

blueytoo wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:12 pm
Fantasy land comments on PU thermal efficiency in this forum.

See: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13177 ... yno-target

Honda would probably be happy to get a reliable engine with anything near or over 50% thermal efficiency.
It's not about reaching 50% thermal efficiency, it's about reaching thermal efficiency and maintaining speed... you can reach 50% thermal efficiency and be slow like a turtle.

restless
restless
22
Joined: Tue May 10, 2016 8:12 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

offtopic, but - is there a description how MGU-H works, what is used for energy harvesting?
I wonder if these ways are set in stone or someone can find additional routes for harvest.

dsdevries
dsdevries
1
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:50 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

restless wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:00 pm
offtopic, but - is there a description how MGU-H works, what is used for energy harvesting?
I wonder if these ways are set in stone or someone can find additional routes for harvest.
The MGU-H is basically a dynamo positioned between the turbine and the compressor of the Turbocharger.

In a normal turbo the hot gasses from the exaust spin a turbine which is directly connected a compressor. That compressor compresses the intake air before it is injected into the cylinder. This compressed air will produce a more powerfull bang inside the cylinder and thus the engine has more power.

But, when the turbo spins while no power is needed by the engine, then all that energy is wasted. So the MGU-H will disengage the compressor and engages a dynamo which will charge the battery. That battery can power multiple things, but it is mainly used to spin the turbo at lower refs when the exaust gases alone are not powerfull enough. It is also used by the bobine to produce a more powerfull spark.
Last edited by dsdevries on Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Big Tea
113
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

restless wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:00 pm
offtopic, but - is there a description how MGU-H works, what is used for energy harvesting?
I wonder if these ways are set in stone or someone can find additional routes for harvest.
Are you thinking along these lines?

https://www.wired.com/story/build-a-the ... -missions/

I think it is a way off yet though
I am very much in favour of filtered water. Preferably passed through a brewery

restless
restless
22
Joined: Tue May 10, 2016 8:12 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

yup. Not long ago read about some really interesting breakthroughs in thermo-and-other to electric conversions, I thought its almost on technology edge to have a gain in F1 with such. After all F1 is/should be on the edge of current tech

ispano6
ispano6
216
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:56 pm
Location: my playseat

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Indeed, there is still much to recover from heat other than from hot gases and Honda are onto this I'm certain.

Naturally you want to be able to store as much as you can, as fast as you can, AND deploy it while doing so, in the most compact and lightweight packaging possible. Tidy packaging and the space for hands to fit has its limits, particularly when it comes to an excess of connectors and wiring/cabling.

If I were Honda I would be applying their carbon nanotube research directly with the Formula 1 project to really make use of the realworld laboratory. Plus, they should put to the test their new fluoride-ion battery chemistry since it needs to operate at high temps. It certainly would be nice to see Honda bring forth such innovations.