Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Juzh
433
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:45 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Juzh » Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:56 pm

hurril wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:36 pm
Juzh wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:57 pm
henry wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:47 am


Very interesting post. Lots of time lost under braking. Driver? Aero? Chassis?

I think the statement “The RPM of the Honda PU is also significantly and quite consistently lower than that of the Mercedes PU so Honda still appears to have a good amount of work to do“ is the exact opposite of how things are. If Honda can make power at lower RPM that’s good not bad. More revs good is not the way to go with these PU. IMHO.
Charts and all that is great, but anything regarding RPM in that analysis is flawed and should not be taken seriously, as it the whole thing about tyre saving trouhgout the lap. All it matters is you keep the engine in the operating window of max fuel flow (10.5k+ rpm), everything else is arguing semantics really. 6 years running now and still people cling onto the old NA engines philosophy of more RPM is always better. Even then rpm weren't be all and end all, 2006 20k cosworth anybody?


As for the time lost under braking, it makes sense you have to brake earlier when you're down of DF levels, it's just the way it it goes. mercedes was simply the best car in melbourne and it wasn't even close, not even with red bull.

I also think that, while honda did make signifficant progress one way or another, red bull and in particular TR cutting down on DF flattered them on the straights to a degree on that track. RB basically made a 180 U turn, they went from absolutely being the best in high speed section T11-12 last year, to now being behind merc, ferrari, haas maybe even alfa romeo. Yes, other aspects of their chassis still made them far superior compared to most of those cars, but in terms of pure aero performance they were far down from what is ussually the case.
No anything about the RPM chart is not flawed just because. More RPM produces more gass volume which might be beneficial for the MGU-h. What if they run the turbine with more wastegate to reduce backpressure because that will produce more crankshaft output and compensate the loss of regeneration somewhat with some more RPM. We don't know any of this so let's not get all macho over what is semantic and what isn't.
I'll tell you why this is wrong, or at the very least the effect of what you're proposed is so small in reality it almost makes no sense to debate it, or maybe it's even backwards from what you suggested. Fortnunately for us we've had a perfect demonstration back in 2014 when williams ran super short gearing and mercedess ran super long gearing.

Williams revs from 10400-11800 rpm


mercedes revs from 10800-12600 rpm


Clearly significant difference in the way engine operating window was used, which both netted a nearly identical performance in the end on most tracks.
Because 2014 williams was inherently less draggy car compared to mercedes I chose monaco for a quick example of achieved speeds - all cars on max downforce possible and the speeds are too low to be influenced by drag:
https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula- ... sification

QUALIFYING - SPEED TRAP

Speeds at the speed trap after tunnel exit:

1 Valtteri Bottas Williams Martini Racing 292.0
2 Nico Rosberg Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 290.9
3 Felipe Massa Williams Martini Racing 290.1
4 Lewis Hamilton Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 290.0


Speeds at the start/finish line:

V. Bottas 274.3
F. Massa 274.1
N. Rosberg 274.0
L. Hamilton 271.6

After monza, mercedes switched to williams style, suggesting lower operating window was preffered.

All in all I don't believe honda running their PU at lower RPM is a detriment of any kind.

hurril
44
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by hurril » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:33 pm

From 2014. A lot of things have happened since. We need to have the perspectives right here as well. You are making a claim and I am simply saying that we shouldn't accept it, adding that there could be a number of reasons for wanting to run at a certain range. Whichever one someone chooses to run at is not going to be a coincidence.

GhostF1
143
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:11 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by GhostF1 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:24 am

I find it ironic because back in the Mclaren Honda days, Honda was criticised for running their engine at too high an rpm range. Reasoning for this was established as "to compensate for ERS/Turbo issues".

Now Honda are running in a completely "normal" rev range and we get weird articles that suggest because they shift at lower RPM than Merc, Honda has a long way to go in this area...

That extrapolation is nonsensical and while we know Mercedes still have a lead, the RPM ceiling is not indicative of comparative engine performance.

Espresso
37
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:03 pm

Bahrain. Friday preperations...

Post by Espresso » Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:31 am

Do you feel the need to post, comment or criticize in this forum?
Please substantiate (why, how, what) your reply!
This is no twitter or chatbox but a forum.

Stay friendly and keep away bashing, trolling & baiting from our wonderful technical forum. --> Forum Guide

anthonyfa18
26
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 4:03 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by anthonyfa18 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:56 pm

Bahrain 2019 toro rosso

Image
Image

hollus
Moderator
User avatar
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:21 am
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by hollus » Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:21 pm

Just a gentle reminder (a few posts have been deleted):
Posts about which team will be in front of which other team are considered off topic in the car and PU topics. These threads are much more focused that way and they are long enough as it is dealing just with the hardware.
Posts about which team will be in front of which other team are more than welcomed on team topics, race topics and/or dedicated topics.
It is not white, it is not black, it is probably gray.

Alexf1
16
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:52 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Alexf1 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:19 pm

Does anyone know at which GP weekend the next hardware update of Honda will come?

scarnegie96
1
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:25 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by scarnegie96 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:29 pm

Probably Canada.

GhostF1
143
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:11 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by GhostF1 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:33 pm

Alexf1 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:19 pm
Does anyone know at which GP weekend the next hardware update of Honda will come?
Apparently both GP's so far they've been making minor updates, China I'm not sure of but it's likely there will be a couple small things, the first major engine overhaul, unless something happens I would predict would be between Spain and Canada. Canada is usually when manufacturers bring their first major update but with how high their desire is to win in Monaco, it's possible an upgrade is brought in Spain in preparation.

McMika98
-35
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:40 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by McMika98 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:53 pm

So in the Bahrain post race in season testing Honda tested more engine settings which alludes to higher power modes as they mentioned they cannot do that for race engines maybe due to reliability concerns. So it seems they can get more performance from this engine.

mzso
15
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:52 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by mzso » Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:42 am

McMika98 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:53 pm
So in the Bahrain post race in season testing Honda tested more engine settings which alludes to higher power modes as they mentioned they cannot do that for race engines maybe due to reliability concerns. So it seems they can get more performance from this engine.
What's to stop them from testing newer spec prototype engines?

NL_Fer
61
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:48 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by NL_Fer » Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:50 am

They would be outdated in Canada, if they would built one now.

f1rules
257
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2004 2:34 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by f1rules » Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:41 am

for what its worth.

Albert Fabrega
@AlbertFabrega
6m6 minutes ago
More
Diferentes mediciones en pit y paddock en cuanto a potencia d motores. Todas coinciden en Ferrari claramente delante d Mercedes, pero no atrás. La q me ha llegado da a Honda más potencia q Renault en carrera y menos en quali. Otra da a Renault por delante en ambos. Muy igualados.
Translated from Spanish by Microsoft
Different measurements in pit and paddock in terms of power D motors. All match in Ferrari clearly ahead D Mercedes, but not back. The Q has reached me gives Honda more power Q Renault in Carrera and less in quali. Another gives Renault ahead in both. Very equal.

mzso
15
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:52 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by mzso » Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:27 pm

NL_Fer wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:50 am
They would be outdated in Canada, if they would built one now.
Doesn't matter if it's for testing. They'd just develop it further still.

NL_Fer
61
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:48 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by NL_Fer » Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:57 pm

They can test very much on the (dynamic) dynometer. Not like the windtunnel, which is much more limited. Maybe they just prefer to keep to aero testing.