Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Alexf1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Alexf1 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:43 am

Thanks Wouter. Hope its a big step cause gap to Bottas fastest lap was 0.7 again.

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:25 pm

Honda is still behind, but the package as a whole is slowly coming together. I don't think Honda will be able to make as big a step as they made from last year to this one. Now its just improving the details, making small changes that can add up to a reasonable one.

I don't believe the gap is .7, it is probably closer to .4 and with tire longevity added to the mix it can swing in Red Bull's favor at times.

If Honda adds 20hp average, and Red Bull another two tenths the gap will be bridged. They'll be a little better off than they were last year, which will be enough to bag wins.

Of course the others will keep developing, so that becomes a moving target. They'll need to add 20 and .2 on top of whatever the others achieve.
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Capharol
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Capharol » Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:28 pm

"stole this out of the McLaren topic "

thanks for sharing by the way mclaren111

Image
Paul Velasco:
This pecking order is based on ‘my-simple-maths’ on the times that were set during qualifying, specifically in Q3, but also Q2 revealing a few things here and there.
Strive for continuous improvement, instead of perfection.

Wouter
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Wouter » Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:36 pm

Capharol wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:28 pm
"stole this out of the McLaren topic "

thanks for sharing by the way mclaren111

https://i.imgur.com/qA6WflC.jpg
Paul Velasco:
This pecking order is based on ‘my-simple-maths’ on the times that were set during qualifying, specifically in Q3, but also Q2 revealing a few things here and there.

This gives a distorted picture, because Max did not get a tow from someone and the Ferrari and Mercedes drivers did get a tow.
The gap is therefore much less than 0.5 sec.

Capharol
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Capharol » Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:36 pm

Wouter wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:36 pm
Capharol wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:28 pm
"stole this out of the McLaren topic "

thanks for sharing by the way mclaren111

https://i.imgur.com/qA6WflC.jpg
Paul Velasco:
This pecking order is based on ‘my-simple-maths’ on the times that were set during qualifying, specifically in Q3, but also Q2 revealing a few things here and there.

This gives a distorted picture, because Max did not get a tow from someone and the Ferrari and Mercedes drivers did get a tow.
The gap is therefore much less than 0.5 sec.
even if it is, its pretty good anyway considering Baku is a power track due to the very long straight
Strive for continuous improvement, instead of perfection.

Juzh
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Juzh » Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:56 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:25 pm
I don't believe the gap is .7, it is probably closer to .4 and with tire longevity added to the mix it can swing in Red Bull's favor at times.
I counted the frames verstappen lost on the straights in Q3 compared to Vettel's final run (zero slipstream for both), and it was around 9 frames = 0.36s over the 3 longest straights on the track. He lost 0.12s in S1, 0.04s in S2 and 0.2s on the final long straight. That's obviously disregarding aero setups and how good a preceding corner exit was, but in most cases that was only 1-2 kmh difference as seen in images:

S1 - T2 exit speeds almost identical, VER ends up 0.12s behind on the zebra crossing reference
Image

S2 - straight after the castle section, again almost identical exti speeds, loses only 1 frame = 0.04s
Image

S3 - same story on final straight with the exit speeds, loss at the start/finish line 5 frames = 0.2s
Image

On a track like baku this is really an excelent performance from honda, in the renault days this number was at best 0.8s and often times much more than that (suzuka 2018 1.8s if i remember correctly, possibly more).

Gibbs
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Gibbs » Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:32 pm

Capharol wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:28 pm
"stole this out of the McLaren topic "

thanks for sharing by the way mclaren111
Paul Velasco:
This pecking order is based on ‘my-simple-maths’ on the times that were set during qualifying, specifically in Q3, but also Q2 revealing a few things here and there.
If you want to deduce a pecking order over a single lap then Qualifying times might be a good source of information, however the race goes for 50+ laps, not 1. As has been discussed elsewhere here, Honda's race pace is most likely better than their Q speed.

Capharol
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Capharol » Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:54 pm

Gibbs wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:32 pm
Capharol wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:28 pm
"stole this out of the McLaren topic "

thanks for sharing by the way mclaren111
Paul Velasco:
This pecking order is based on ‘my-simple-maths’ on the times that were set during qualifying, specifically in Q3, but also Q2 revealing a few things here and there.
If you want to deduce a pecking order over a single lap then Qualifying times might be a good source of information, however the race goes for 50+ laps, not 1. As has been discussed elsewhere here, Honda's race pace is most likely better than their Q speed.
yes of course it is .... but isn't it easier to drive/start a race from the front as from 2nd, 3rd, 4th row
if you have equal racepace, and starting 4th on the grid, you somehow need to get pass the other 3 to win....
now this can be done several ways (tyre managment eg. longer stint, driver mistake, better pitstop or.... get with DRS and then slowly coming closer to the car in front, which ruins your tyre) but normallyn on equal racepace you can't pass a other car in front of you ....because you have the equal racepace, if you drive 120 kmh in your car and I drive behind you and the same speed, and i can't go faster then you, you'll finish first right?.

so something has to improve (better both) 1. Qualifying or 2. higher racepace

damn i lost myself here.....

what i wanna to say is, they have to close that 0,4-0,5 gap in Quali so they can start in front and when they have a good start they can control the racepace (this is exactly what Merc is doing, be faster in Quali and control your opponent in the race)
Strive for continuous improvement, instead of perfection.

Gibbs
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Gibbs » Wed May 01, 2019 4:07 am

My point was that if we're going to critique the PU thoroughly, single decimal figures from a situation which is unrepresentative of the entire weekend is not a good place to start.

HondaPOD
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by HondaPOD » Wed May 01, 2019 9:31 am

Below some quotes for japanese newspaper about the planned spec2 introduction.
quotes from the forumer Hasika (autosport) :
f1sokuho link1
f1sokuho link1
f1sokuho link1

·Spec2 is a planned update,not a reaction to KVYT's issue during chinese GP.But Unfortunately it was not ready for chinese GP(so the two Toro Rosso had to change to another set of Spec1 during chinese GP).
·KVYT's issue is still under investigation,but Honda still decide to introduce Spec2 in Baku because the parts where KVYT's Spec1 had problem is different(designed?) in Spec2.
·About KVYT's PU which had an issue.The ICE cant be uesed again,the other component is OK.
·About Albon's PU after a huge crash in FP3 during chinese GP,ICE is still under investigation,other components seems OK.
·Spec2 dint improve much in Maximum Power output.Its more like a total performance improvement,just like how to use the PU.
·Gasly's exceeded fuel flow limit in Q1.When Gasly's RB15 Hits at 334.1km/h,that moment,his car exceeded fuel flow limit because of an unexpected oscillation.But its only about 0.2kg,so it didnt make much difference to his laptime.Red Bull and Honda changed the Parameter of the SECU for galsy's car.But they didnt know how this could happen so they will investigate it before Spain GP.

Capharol
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Capharol » Wed May 01, 2019 9:33 am

Gibbs wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 4:07 am
My point was that if we're going to critique the PU thoroughly, single decimal figures from a situation which is unrepresentative of the entire weekend is not a good place to start.
and why not?
where should we start then.... racepace?
Race pace is high fueled, sometimes even different tyres, engine turned down to save the engine.....
Quali is pure racepower, low fuel, mostly with the same tyre (especially Q3)
so if you wanna compare the best is to do this in Quali
Strive for continuous improvement, instead of perfection.

subcritical71
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Wed May 01, 2019 9:45 am

Isn’t this still the power unit thread?

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Wed May 01, 2019 10:36 am

Sound and looks like something being discussed is not liked, so try police the thread instead of the police themselves.

subcritical71
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Wed May 01, 2019 11:08 am

saviour stivala wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 10:36 am
Sound and looks like something being discussed is not liked, so try police the thread instead of the police themselves.
Not sure what you are trying to articulate, but yes, I think this thread is becoming a combined race and team thread vs the power unit discussion. But that in no way is a statement on the like or dislike (not liked?) of the actual topics covered as it’s actually an interesting debate.

Jejking
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Jejking » Wed May 01, 2019 12:49 pm

HondaPOD wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 9:31 am
Below some quotes for japanese newspaper about the planned spec2 introduction.
quotes from the forumer Hasika (autosport) :
f1sokuho link1
f1sokuho link1
f1sokuho link1

·Spec2 is a planned update,not a reaction to KVYT's issue during chinese GP.But Unfortunately it was not ready for chinese GP(so the two Toro Rosso had to change to another set of Spec1 during chinese GP).
·KVYT's issue is still under investigation,but Honda still decide to introduce Spec2 in Baku because the parts where KVYT's Spec1 had problem is different(designed?) in Spec2.
·About KVYT's PU which had an issue.The ICE cant be uesed again,the other component is OK.
·About Albon's PU after a huge crash in FP3 during chinese GP,ICE is still under investigation,other components seems OK.
·Spec2 dint improve much in Maximum Power output.Its more like a total performance improvement,just like how to use the PU.
·Gasly's exceeded fuel flow limit in Q1.When Gasly's RB15 Hits at 334.1km/h,that moment,his car exceeded fuel flow limit because of an unexpected oscillation.But its only about 0.2kg,so it didnt make much difference to his laptime.Red Bull and Honda changed the Parameter of the SECU for galsy's car.But they didnt know how this could happen so they will investigate it before Spain GP.
I find this not really suspect. Would Gasly's run have been the first timed run they would have used qualy mode for, during the Azer weekend? I do think so. It's normal to keep your powder somewhat dry, but my first thought was that they were just attempting to get out of Q1 safely without party mode. The pressure was on, but not more than normal. Possibly they ran Gasly's engine at 11/11 and with Max they felt he was secure already. We could grab that from the data, maybe if his top speeds were higher than measured before, it was enabled. But I don't have that data rn.

In the case of party mode, what oscillation could have caused this behaviour? Either it was one bump in the surface, or it was an optimization 'problem' with Spec 2 where they just got too close to the limit. Because the article above breathes optimization instead of revolution. Either way, I think Honda is pushing seriously hard and also very well cooperating with Red Bull to iron out the issues within this test-restricted environment.