Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Alexf1]

He hit the rev limiter according to 1 of the Japanese articles linked above

[Alexf1]

I don't believe the gap is .7, it is probably closer to .4 and with tire longevity added to the mix it can swing in Red Bull's favor at times.

I counted the frames verstappen lost on the straights in Q3 compared to Vettel's final run (zero slipstream for both), and it was around 9 frames = 0.36s over the 3 longest straights on the track. He lost 0.12s in S1, 0.04s in S2 and 0.2s on the final long straight. That's obviously disregarding aero setups and how good a preceding corner exit was, but in most cases that was only 1-2 kmh difference as seen in images:

S1 - T2 exit speeds almost identical, VER ends up 0.12s behind on the zebra crossing reference
https://i.imgur.com/qr3wcQu.jpg

S2 - straight after the castle section, again almost identical exti speeds, loses only 1 frame = 0.04s
https://i.imgur.com/tDdQ7YE.jpg

S3 - same story on final straight with the exit speeds, loss at the start/finish line 5 frames = 0.2s
https://i.imgur.com/X9GADNm.jpg

On a track like baku this is really an excelent performance from honda, in the renault days this number was at best 0.8s and often times much more than that (suzuka 2018 1.8s if i remember correctly, possibly more).

Then the RB15 chassis isnt even close to the RB14 or Mercedes and Ferrari chassis have improved a lot compared to last year.

[godlameroso]

The gap shows they lose .3 tenths and change to engine power. The total gap is around .4

The gap comes both from engine and chassis, both must improve.

Mercedes has a slight edge and it is as a total package, not just engine.

Red Bull has been closing the gap, on the chassis front, and now with Baku engine, Honda on the power unit front.

Apparently the update centered around new piston crowns and injectors. If these were revised for increased reliability, it raises some interesting questions regarding the process being used.

Maybe its a reason to talk about steel pistons.

[hollus]

Isn’t this still the power unit thread?

Yes it is!

Mods cannot be everywhere all the time (and they don't want to be more annoying than necessary), so we remind users to try and self-police from time to time.
It is understandable that there is an urge to discuss car-pace everywhere, but do we really want all threads to be about car-pace? Because that is where complete lack of inhibition by everyone ends.

Please, keep car-pace* out of the car threads and the PU threads as much as possible. Thank you.

*Unless it is specifically related to the PU

[GhostF1]

The gap shows they lose .3 tenths and change to engine power. The total gap is around .4

The gap comes both from engine and chassis, both must improve.

Mercedes has a slight edge and it is as a total package, not just engine.

Red Bull has been closing the gap, on the chassis front, and now with Baku engine, Honda on the power unit front.

Apparently the update centered around new piston crowns and injectors. If these were revised for increased reliability, it raises some interesting questions regarding the process being used.

Maybe its a reason to talk about steel pistons.

Interesting, where did you find the information regarding the specifics of the update?? It makes sense, being able to run more aggressive modes since the update (due to better piston crowns).
I'm sure we also hit on a little info piece that basically confirmed Ferrari and Honda were using steel pistons, this was only found out as both manufacturers were sourcing from the same supplier who released that? Correct me if I'm wrong.

On that, do we think the quality control fault (in Kvyat's PU) was with the piston crowns? Or just coincidental.

[saviour stivala]

The gap shows they lose .3 tenths and change to engine power. The total gap is around .4

The gap comes both from engine and chassis, both must improve.

Mercedes has a slight edge and it is as a total package, not just engine.

Red Bull has been closing the gap, on the chassis front, and now with Baku engine, Honda on the power unit front.

Apparently the update centered around new piston crowns and injectors. If these were revised for increased reliability, it raises some interesting questions regarding the process being used.

Maybe its a reason to talk about steel pistons.

Interesting, where did you find the information regarding the specifics of the update?? It makes sense, being able to run more aggressive modes since the update (due to better piston crowns).
I'm sure we also hit on a little info piece that basically confirmed Ferrari and Honda were using steel pistons, this was only found out as both manufacturers were sourcing from the same supplier who released that? Correct me if I'm wrong.

On that, do we think the quality control fault (in Kvyat's PU) was with the piston crowns? Or just coincidental.

“Where did you find the information?” “we both hit on little info that basically confirmed”.
Will you two or any of you two please supply a link to what you two are claiming?.

[rgava]

The gap shows they lose .3 tenths and change to engine power. The total gap is around .4

The gap comes both from engine and chassis, both must improve.

Mercedes has a slight edge and it is as a total package, not just engine.

Red Bull has been closing the gap, on the chassis front, and now with Baku engine, Honda on the power unit front.

Apparently the update centered around new piston crowns and injectors. If these were revised for increased reliability, it raises some interesting questions regarding the process being used.

Maybe its a reason to talk about steel pistons.

Interesting, where did you find the information regarding the specifics of the update?? It makes sense, being able to run more aggressive modes since the update (due to better piston crowns).
I'm sure we also hit on a little info piece that basically confirmed Ferrari and Honda were using steel pistons, this was only found out as both manufacturers were sourcing from the same supplier who released that? Correct me if I'm wrong.

On that, do we think the quality control fault (in Kvyat's PU) was with the piston crowns? Or just coincidental.

“Where did you find the information?” “we both hit on little info that basically confirmed”.
Will you two or any of you two please supply a link to what you two are claiming?.

The info came from me personally.
I was flying in a plane, and in the seat next to me was an employee of the supplier working directly with those pistons. We started to chat and he confirmed me both Ferrari and Honda are using steel pistons. There is no possible link. There is no official statement. Just an enthusiast employee disclosing that info in an informal chat. You can believe it or not. It's just like it is. I hope not to cause a witch hunt at the supplier with this.

[saviour stivala]

Interesting, where did you find the information regarding the specifics of the update?? It makes sense, being able to run more aggressive modes since the update (due to better piston crowns).
I'm sure we also hit on a little info piece that basically confirmed Ferrari and Honda were using steel pistons, this was only found out as both manufacturers were sourcing from the same supplier who released that? Correct me if I'm wrong.

On that, do we think the quality control fault (in Kvyat's PU) was with the piston crowns? Or just coincidental.

“Where did you find the information?” “we both hit on little info that basically confirmed”.
Will you two or any of you two please supply a link to what you two are claiming?.

The info came from me personally.
I was flying in a plane, and in the seat next to me was an employee of the supplier working directly with those pistons. We started to chat and he confirmed me both Ferrari and Honda are using steel pistons. There is no possible link. There is no official statement. Just an enthusiast employee disclosing that info in an informal chat. You can believe it or not. It's just like it is. I hope not to cause a witch hunt at the supplier with this.

OK and thanks for your troubles. so we can now say that both Honda and FERRARI are using steel pistons manufactured by the same supplier.

[etusch]

Which parts of engines produced by car manufacturer brands and which are from outside suppliers?

[godlameroso]

Which parts of engines produced by car manufacturer brands and which are from outside suppliers?

The block itself, cylinder head, camshafts, crankshaft, cylinder bores, timing gears are manufacturer items. The rest is kind of murky because manufacturers have subsidiaries as well as outside suppliers, and parts come from a mix of the two.

[etusch]

Which parts of engines produced by car manufacturer brands and which are from outside suppliers?

The block itself, cylinder head, camshafts, crankshaft, cylinder bores, timing gears are manufacturer items. The rest is kind of murky because manufacturers have subsidiaries as well as outside suppliers, and parts come from a mix of the two.

Thank you

[Juzh]

I don't believe the gap is .7, it is probably closer to .4 and with tire longevity added to the mix it can swing in Red Bull's favor at times.

I counted the frames verstappen lost on the straights in Q3 compared to Vettel's final run (zero slipstream for both), and it was around 9 frames = 0.36s over the 3 longest straights on the track. He lost 0.12s in S1, 0.04s in S2 and 0.2s on the final long straight. That's obviously disregarding aero setups and how good a preceding corner exit was, but in most cases that was only 1-2 kmh difference as seen in images:

S1 - T2 exit speeds almost identical, VER ends up 0.12s behind on the zebra crossing reference
https://i.imgur.com/qr3wcQu.jpg

S2 - straight after the castle section, again almost identical exti speeds, loses only 1 frame = 0.04s
https://i.imgur.com/tDdQ7YE.jpg

S3 - same story on final straight with the exit speeds, loss at the start/finish line 5 frames = 0.2s
https://i.imgur.com/X9GADNm.jpg

On a track like baku this is really an excelent performance from honda, in the renault days this number was at best 0.8s and often times much more than that (suzuka 2018 1.8s if i remember correctly, possibly more).

Then the RB15 chassis isnt even close to the RB14 or Mercedes and Ferrari chassis have improved a lot compared to last year.

It has been more or less agreed the rb15 is not on rb14 level on the chassis side, both relative to competitors and relative to their own performance trough corners. RB14 simply had more downforce and carried more speed trough corners.

[godlameroso]

I counted the frames verstappen lost on the straights in Q3 compared to Vettel's final run (zero slipstream for both), and it was around 9 frames = 0.36s over the 3 longest straights on the track. He lost 0.12s in S1, 0.04s in S2 and 0.2s on the final long straight. That's obviously disregarding aero setups and how good a preceding corner exit was, but in most cases that was only 1-2 kmh difference as seen in images:

S1 - T2 exit speeds almost identical, VER ends up 0.12s behind on the zebra crossing reference
https://i.imgur.com/qr3wcQu.jpg

S2 - straight after the castle section, again almost identical exti speeds, loses only 1 frame = 0.04s
https://i.imgur.com/tDdQ7YE.jpg

S3 - same story on final straight with the exit speeds, loss at the start/finish line 5 frames = 0.2s
https://i.imgur.com/X9GADNm.jpg

On a track like baku this is really an excelent performance from honda, in the renault days this number was at best 0.8s and often times much more than that (suzuka 2018 1.8s if i remember correctly, possibly more).

Then the RB15 chassis isnt even close to the RB14 or Mercedes and Ferrari chassis have improved a lot compared to last year.

It has been more or less agreed the rb15 is not on rb14 level on the chassis side, both relative to competitors and relative to their own performance trough corners. RB14 simply had more downforce and carried more speed trough corners.

They were .3 seconds slower than last year in China, but .9 seconds faster than they were in Baku qualifying last year.

That shows the engine has definitely improved, it also shows they have slightly less downforce. More incredible is that Mercedes improved on Baku by 1.3 seconds. The race pace gap is also around .3-.4 seconds.

[restless]

New graph , compares Bottas and Verstappen Q3 in Baku

Too bad Verstappen had no tow ... still engine diff looks big

[_cerber1]

What is it?