Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
loner
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by loner » Mon May 27, 2019 3:41 pm

Bill wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 12:15 pm
Ioner that's not evidence hard facts about the here and now not something that was said 2 months ago you meet as well bring something from 2015. Honda, Ferrari and Renault has since then updated their pu
they introduced 1 update since then with slightly more power quoting Honda people
if i understood correctly revising steel pistons gave them more strength to higher modes during race trim
now the next update is interesting...
It Tolls for Thee.

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Mon May 27, 2019 4:47 pm

zac510 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 1:01 pm
Thunder18 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 11:53 am
Drivers cannot deactivate the mode once they are at racing speeds, and Verstappen didn’t return to the pits for the rest of the race.
This is the bit I don't understand; usually if it's software you can change it whenever, fuel/ignition modes for example. "Drivers cannot deactivate" must mean by FIA regulation they are not allowed to deactivate it?

I am not alone than in being unable to understand or make sense out of it.
I was told that 'torque 12' is for standing race start and 'torque 6'' is for racing. if that is the case it means that once the standing race start mode 'torque 12' is done and dusted, the driver selects racing mode 'torque 6'. and he must have done that with no problem as everything went fine before his pit stop. now this is what I think, before he entered the pit lane he was in 'VSC/safety car mode', when he entered the pit lane he must have changed over/activated pit lane speed limiter. instead we are told that he was instructed to move to 'torque 12' and then change to 'torque 6' as he exited. now as far as I know when he exit the pit the first thing he need do is deactivate pit lane speed limiter mode. from the article it seems that the red bull car does not go back to the racing mode that was in use before driver activated pit lane speed limiter on entry and then deactivated on exit.

NL_Fer
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by NL_Fer » Mon May 27, 2019 7:11 pm

Onlything i can think of is, that the menu option is only available with pit limiter enabled.

subcritical71
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Mon May 27, 2019 8:59 pm

NL_Fer wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 7:11 pm
Onlything i can think of is, that the menu option is only available with pit limiter enabled.
Good luck finding the appendix, however....
8.3.2 The ECU will implement a “lockout” period after each race start or pit stop during which a number of power unit and clutch related functions will be frozen or disabled. Details of the strategy may be found in the Appendix to the Technical Regulations.

zac510
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by zac510 » Mon May 27, 2019 10:50 pm

Thanks, well details in the Appendix aside that at least clears up that it's a regulatory restriction.

ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ispano6 » Tue May 28, 2019 3:24 pm

I guess it never once occurred to Max or the team to pit Max, fix the setting, serve the penalty, and give Max the fastest lap and a chance at attacking Bottas for the podium. It's understandable that Max will go for the win, but sometimes you need a level headed strategist to see through the mayhem.

ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ispano6 » Tue May 28, 2019 4:40 pm

Well at least Max enjoyed the battle and was fighting for the lead even with an uncomfortable mapping, but Lewis didn't seem phased or seem threatened after the race (even though on radio he sounded like he was). So basically in Lewis' mind there was no way Max would have passed him on merit.

shingles
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by shingles » Tue May 28, 2019 6:51 pm

ispano6 wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 3:24 pm
I guess it never once occurred to Max or the team to pit Max, fix the setting, serve the penalty, and give Max the fastest lap and a chance at attacking Bottas for the podium. It's understandable that Max will go for the win, but sometimes you need a level headed strategist to see through the mayhem.
Say they come in, pit Max... maybe he comes out 4th, maybe he doesn’t. Maybe he comes out further back after serving the penalty. Why do you think they were not level headed? Why do you think they didn’t think about it? Maybe they DID think about it and this was the best choice. As far as I saw, the choice was fine, they wouldn’t have ended any better.

Your same point about attacking Bottas, is the same as attacking Hamilton. If you can get past, they could maybe pull more than 5 seconds... but at the end of the day, it’s Monaco.

NL_Fer
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by NL_Fer » Tue May 28, 2019 10:54 pm

ispano6 wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 3:24 pm
I guess it never once occurred to Max or the team to pit Max, fix the setting, serve the penalty, and give Max the fastest lap and a chance at attacking Bottas for the podium. It's understandable that Max will go for the win, but sometimes you need a level headed strategist to see through the mayhem.
The option was considered, but declined. Rather took a chance on Hamilton failing or sliding into a barier.

ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ispano6 » Wed May 29, 2019 4:08 am

To re pit? the option aired over the radio was take 5 second penalty or pass Hamilton and drive off into the distance. As I said before I completely understand Max's decision to take the fight to Hamilton for a win. But once the torque mode issue was identified it is not that there was no possible way to fix the issue. We'll never know if a Max on brand new fresh tires with the correct torque mode could catch and overtake a Bottas on old hards, but we'll never know.
Looking at other team's roadblock strategy makes me wonder what could have been especially if Gasly didn't get demoted to 8th.

belldanndy
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by belldanndy » Wed May 29, 2019 12:05 pm

subcritical71 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 8:59 pm
NL_Fer wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 7:11 pm
Onlything i can think of is, that the menu option is only available with pit limiter enabled.
Good luck finding the appendix, however....
8.3.2 The ECU will implement a “lockout” period after each race start or pit stop during which a number of power unit and clutch related functions will be frozen or disabled. Details of the strategy may be found in the Appendix to the Technical Regulations.
So what the "The ECU will implement a “lockout” period" means is the lockout only occurred for a period of time before it can be release? I still can't understand how this race start/pit stop torque mapping work.

Slo Poke
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Slo Poke » Wed May 29, 2019 7:46 pm

zac510 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 10:53 am
I thought he had an SNES in the car :)

This article has just come out:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vers ... o/4397096/

Anybody have any idea what it could possibly be that they can only change when the car is in the pit lane? I haven't heard of the other 3 engine manufacturers having a setting like this.
I don’t want to appear rude to anyone but I’m surprised that no-one on site doesn’t already know!
Engine modes are technically chosen by the driver although not normally in an expected way. You will all remember some years back, as it was made a big thing of, about how the Mercedes drivers would go out on track and attack sector one and then abruptly return to the pit garage. Moments later out they would go again and attack sector two and likewise return to the pit garage. Then finally they’d be attacking sector three and so forth. After which both would spend some time driving at near race speeds then again return to the pit garage to fine-tune certain settings. All this mainly went on during early-mid fp1 and would no doubt involve data collection and archiving. Well! Here’s a brief of what they were up to. Please bear with me.
Consider two miniature hydraulic rams arranged in perfect opposition. When the chromed ram on the left is almost fully exposed and naked from its cylinder the ram on the right is almost fully sheathed inside of its cylinder awaiting work. The cylinder on the left is coupled up to the adjustable swashplate hydraulic pump (it may even have its own dedicated pump) whatever, that ram remains idle when it’s not quite fully extended. The cylinder on the right is coupled by branch-line to the braking system and so extends under braking. The eye common to each ram has a scribe or some such attached to it that moves along a set of piano-like keys. Each key represents an engine mode, the more aggressive modes being those at far right. Of course the hydraulic rams as such have never existed on a formula car, as far more sophisticated electronic potentiometers will have always filled that role but you should now grasp the simplified reasoning of engine mode selection to enable accurate nullification of wheel slip and drivability. When requested by push-to-pass, the ram on the left is allowed to fully sheathe the ram on the right, otherwise that, or those modes remain barred to protect the engine from unnecessary wear.
Once set and not strictly adhered to these engine modes are likely to end up out of sequence to the track in question, as Max would have found out after he pressed the torque demand pedal exiting a particular corner. If say he wanted controlled but very quickly provided high torque leaving Portier and the out-sequenced hydraulics were configured for Nouvelle the system would seem to him like it was trying to put him to sleep. Moving quickly on to Max needing a steady influx of torque at Nouvelle an out-sequenced hydraulics we’re now configured for A. Nogues the system would likely try to kill him.
When Max left the circuit to pit, the car may probably have been in mode six and so he would manually switch to mode twelve, start mode but the kerfuffel threw them all and mode six was not saught at pit exit, which leads me to believe the white pit exit line out on track, ends roughly where a formula one car might be self acquiring mode six?
Hope that's a help!

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Wed May 29, 2019 8:28 pm

Before number 33 RB pitted it was running in VSC mode, before crossing the pit-lane ‘in-line’ the driver activated the pit-lane speed limiter, on its way out of the pit-lane and after crossing the pit-lane ‘out-line’ the driver deactivated the pit-lane speed limiter. Once the pit-lane speed limiter had been deactivated the power unit would have returned to what mode had been chosen before the activating of the pit-lane speed limiter when entering the pits. But what nobody is noticing is that returning to the mode that was chosen before the activation of the pit-lane speed limiter could not be returned too on pit lane exit, because track was still under VSC mode condition.

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Wed May 29, 2019 9:13 pm

The red bull instructions to their driver to ‘go-to torque 12 mode’ in-between the car running in VSC mode and the activation of the speed limiter seems to have been overridden by the FIA ECU software safeguards.

subcritical71
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Wed May 29, 2019 11:01 pm

subcritical71 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 8:59 pm
NL_Fer wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 7:11 pm
Onlything i can think of is, that the menu option is only available with pit limiter enabled.
Good luck finding the appendix, however....
8.3.2 The ECU will implement a “lockout” period after each race start or pit stop during which a number of power unit and clutch related functions will be frozen or disabled. Details of the strategy may be found in the Appendix to the Technical Regulations.
I had an idea of what these modes could be, it's the way i would consider doing it anyway. We know the torque map limitations as far as the rules are written (for example ramp rate). RB reminded VER to go to T6 and then return to T12 after the pitstop so it was a deliberate change for the pitstop. it just became public knowledge since in the mayhem on the pot exit he forgot to switch back. What if T6 is using more of the K at lower pedal positions so as to create a virtual anti-stall. So during the pitstop the K wont get bogged down as easy as the ICE could when leaving the pit. That scenario is not available during the start, but nothing about pit stops are mentioned in the rules.