Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Slo Poke
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Slo Poke » Thu May 30, 2019 6:46 am

saviour stivala wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 8:28 pm
Before number 33 RB pitted it was running in VSC mode, before crossing the pit-lane ‘in-line’ the driver activated the pit-lane speed limiter, on its way out of the pit-lane and after crossing the pit-lane ‘out-line’ the driver deactivated the pit-lane speed limiter. Once the pit-lane speed limiter had been deactivated the power unit would have returned to what mode had been chosen before the activating of the pit-lane speed limiter when entering the pits. But what nobody is noticing is that returning to the mode that was chosen before the activation of the pit-lane speed limiter could not be returned too on pit lane exit, because track was still under VSC mode condition.
Saviour Stivala: Before pitting, the RB car 33 may have been self-acquiring engine mode six after leaving Rascasse, even though already being under the overall control mode VSC. Turning to pit the driver of car 33 needed to set both launch mode 12 and the pit-lane speed limiter. This indicates to me that the VSC mode is merely an overlay type speed limiter that allows engine modes to still be engaged and dis-engaged at driver’s will. As such it does not interfere with actual car control or manipulation in any way other than being a speed controller. As for the pit-lane limiter, this is much the same type of thing but with far more stringent control of speed. Once mode 12, launch mode, had been manually selected it remains as the standard underlying setting being the driver’s optimal choice to suit the ongoing circumstance.
The incident in pit-lane dislodged the thought process of the RB driver enough to disfigure the routine of pit exiting but not enough to ruin the habit of disengaging the pit-lane speed limiter. Stirred but not shaken the RB driver arrived back on track busily reorganising his thoughts but not his thought process. Had he have followed that thought line the proper engine mode six would have been manually re-acquired. That does imply that an inability exists in the RB driver but that is not the case here as he was as likely as not going through a self-taught, self-imposed regimen of preservation, that being damage discovery i.e. is there any! Assisted into this lull by the VSC mode still being in governance. Once the falsity of that protection was stripped away though......... Oops!

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Thu May 30, 2019 7:09 am

“motorsports.com/f1/news/vers…0/4317096/” is total hogwash and one of those misleading article reporting with half or nonexistent truths and added bits and pieces which causes confusion and triggers polemics that pushes out assumptions and theories as to what was what. The facts are that RB number 33 pitted while race was under VSC mode. (VSC from lap 11 to lap 13) Before RB number 33 passed the pit-lane ‘in-line’ driver activated pit-lane speed limiter. On the way out of pit-lane, and after passing pit-lane ‘out-line’ number 33 deactivated pit-lane speed limiter. When number 33 did that the car went back into VSC mode because he joined the track while race was still under VSC. 10 laps from the end of the race RB gave permission to number 33 to run a higher engine mode (mode 7) to the end of the race. And number 33 had no trouble doing so. Ditto happened with Mercedes number 44 in response, instructed their driver to run a higher engine mode to the end of the race.

henry
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by henry » Thu May 30, 2019 11:39 am

I think there is confusion from the use of the word mode.

The torque map the failed to be correctly was probably the pedal to torque demand map

The mode change at the end of the race was to a higher energy mode using different ERS and ICE mappings. It’s what Mercedes call Strat.

My guess is the start torque map is less progressive, more sudden, than the race map since it’s only expected to be used in a straight line.
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subcritical71
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Thu May 30, 2019 12:13 pm

henry wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 11:39 am
I think there is confusion from the use of the word mode.

The torque map the failed to be correctly was probably the pedal to torque demand map

The mode change at the end of the race was to a higher energy mode using different ERS and ICE mappings. It’s what Mercedes call Strat.

My guess is the start torque map is less progressive, more sudden, than the race map since it’s only expected to be used in a straight line.
I’m with you on the torque setting being linked to torque demand curve. I believe the lockout is an effort to prevent the turn by turn changing of the torque demand maps. The Red Bull steering wheel has Mode, Fuel, and Charge dials front and center. The Torque rotary (the type generally used for diff settings) is out of the way in the upper right part of the steering wheel next to the PIT button. Exactly where you would put something that isn’t used much.

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Thu May 30, 2019 12:17 pm

It is the easiest of things for confusion to creep in in such a discussion. And the article writer as quoted certainly contributed a lot to confusion. Every change by the driver to any of the power unit function is a ‘mode’, being it for more or less power or more or less aggressive throttle pedal map.

NL_Fer
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by NL_Fer » Fri May 31, 2019 4:33 pm

Engine power modes are usually linked to mapping fuel amounts and ignition timing. The Torque mapping is about how much torque the powerunit has to deliver for each throttle paddle position. Things can be confusing sometimes.

I think the Torque mapping for takeoff’s are tuned to make it easy to keep the powerunit on the desired takeoff rpm, while the clutch is pulled in. The normal mapping is more suited for corner exits.

belldanndy
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by belldanndy » Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:50 pm

NL_Fer wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 4:33 pm
Engine power modes are usually linked to mapping fuel amounts and ignition timing. The Torque mapping is about how much torque the powerunit has to deliver for each throttle paddle position. Things can be confusing sometimes.

I think the Torque mapping for takeoff’s are tuned to make it easy to keep the powerunit on the desired takeoff rpm, while the clutch is pulled in. The normal mapping is more suited for corner exits.
The RB15 Steering Wheel have a turning wheel "TORQ" on the top right, is this for the Torque mapping setting? If so, there are 12 position for different setting, Monaco use 6 and 12, will it be different at other tracks?

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:55 pm

Thread has turned to hog slop. Flush it mods! I command thee!

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Wouter
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Wouter » Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:07 pm

Has anyone heard from Honda Japan (on Japanese sites) or Milton Keynes
whether Honda is going to use spec 3 in Canada?
In Spa or Monza they come with the spec 4, so Canada would be a good moment.

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:24 pm

Wouter wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:07 pm
Has anyone heard from Honda Japan (on Japanese sites) or Milton Keynes
whether Honda is going to use spec 3 in Canada?
In Spa or Monza they come with the spec 4, so Canada would be a good moment.
Next month.
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Wouter
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Wouter » Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:41 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:24 pm
Wouter wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:07 pm
Has anyone heard from Honda Japan (on Japanese sites) or Milton Keynes
whether Honda is going to use spec 3 in Canada?
In Spa or Monza they come with the spec 4, so Canada would be a good moment.
.
Next month.
Next month? Silverstone? I don't think so. From whom do you have this information @godlameroso?

That would not be wise, because in Hungary they can use spec 2,
so until Spa / Monza they use only 2 or 3 races the spec 3, because then comes spec 4.
Moreover, RBR wants in Austria an engine with a lot of power, so more if the spec 2 has.

restless
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by restless » Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:26 pm

Depends.
What if this new spec in synchronized with chassis-work of RedBull?

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:07 pm

Wouter wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:41 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:24 pm
Wouter wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:07 pm
Has anyone heard from Honda Japan (on Japanese sites) or Milton Keynes
whether Honda is going to use spec 3 in Canada?
In Spa or Monza they come with the spec 4, so Canada would be a good moment.
.
Next month.
Next month? Silverstone? I don't think so. From whom do you have this information @godlameroso?

That would not be wise, because in Hungary they can use spec 2,
so until Spa / Monza they use only 2 or 3 races the spec 3, because then comes spec 4.
Moreover, RBR wants in Austria an engine with a lot of power, so more if the spec 2 has.
Don't get too hung up on spec #, updates are chosen because they want to close the gap. If they make a step forward with the engine, it'll go on the car. Considering teams bring another chassis evolution around Silverstone, I would guess they want to time the two upgrades together.

So spec 2 will be used in the next 3 or 4 races. They (both Honda and RB)are pushing really hard to get the update for Silverstone. It'll be worth the patience.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

seense
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by seense » Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:08 pm

Who started using the "spec4" word? I believe Marko told that when they switch to engine number 4 it will be a big upgrade. But maybe thats spec 3 and they will switch to a new spec2 next month?

carisi2k
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by carisi2k » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:16 pm

Remember that it could also be a point spec upgrade to version 2.x before moving to spec 3 at monza.