Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
GhostF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by GhostF1 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:00 am

saviour stivala wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:31 pm
Resorting to a new power unit or anyone (new) of its 6 elements after only 4 races point more to a reliability concern than any improvement.
Incorrect. Red Bull pre season made several remarks that they would encourage Honda to bring any development that would provide a benefit and they would take the penalties whenever feasible to accelerate development. This is exactly what's happening. Notice how every engine change has been for a more powerful/improved unit.

To be honest, their development pace was impressive last year but this year it's looking far more so.

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:58 am

Honda development pace can only look and be described as impressive because they were the once with the most catching-up to do. Their effort was and still is directed at attaining and or being able to release more power with more reliability and with better fuel consumption during a race. Could be that their engine have the power to match the others but they could not use that power during a race reliability and fuel consumption wise.

GhostF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by GhostF1 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:08 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:58 am
Honda development pace can only look and be described as impressive because they were the once with the most catching-up to do. Their effort was and still is directed at attaining and or being able to release more power with more reliability and with better fuel consumption during a race. Could be that their engine have the power to match the others but they could not use that power during a race reliability and fuel consumption wise.
Based on Max's comments in Canada post qualifying, it seems to be RBR's impression that Honda can run more aggressively during the race than Renault at the moment.
This sort of came out as an admission of sorts that Renault's PU in Canada actually looked powerful in qualifying.

I haven't heard any reports, complaints or radio conversations all season where RB or STR have need to fuel save drastically, if anything I've heard them allow higher modes to the drivers towards the end of the race. See Kvyat, Albon and Verstappen have all had very good ends to multiple GP's.

Brake Horse Power
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Brake Horse Power » Sun Jun 16, 2019 3:29 pm

Dutch television reported with the introduction of the latest spec that they are able to run the engine in highest mode for 50% of the race. If that's true than it's probably only thermal management as limiting factor..

carisi2k
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by carisi2k » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:52 am

Some people are just not getting how much difference in car concepts there are this year. None of us truly know if the differences in speed is due to downforce levels or actual engine performance but I think too many people are looking at the top speed charts and adding 1 and 1 together and coming to 3.

At Baku the Honda's were clearly better then the Renault powered cars on similar drag levels and somehow now they are bums. At Baku the Renaults couldn't pull a door off a barn which resulted in my favourite driver reversing in to kyvat after failing to overtake under brakes.

In conclusion the red bulls were clearly running more downforce then the Renault powered cars.

epo
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by epo » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:09 am

Didn't they have heat issues in Canada and therefor turned down the engine as there was not much to gain for Verstappen?

j.yank
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by j.yank » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:46 am

Recently Pierre Waché wrote about Canada race:

"Because the chasis is aerodynamically unstable, we have to put more downforce. As a result, if the drag (air resistance) increases, it loses to its rivals in power, which makes it even harder on straight. And although low speed corners are fine, they are not as fast as the Mercedes AMG.

In other words, in Canada, we were forced to land on a compromise that was not half-strong and strong in any way. So to speak, only the Red Bull RB15's weakness has come out".

To claim that because Renault had one of the best top speeds in Canada they have superior engine is to claim that because last season Hartley did several top speeds for Toro Rosso then Honda had the best engine. Pure nonsense. There is not direct connection between top speeds and engine performance. Many other factors influence the speed, and these factors lay outside of the topic of this tread.

restless
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by restless » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:58 am

Renault engines were toned down in Baku - it was known before the race.
I agree that so far Honda was looking for reliabilty and second half will be for performance - but this was stated from Tanabe himself, so why all the noise?!
Just get ready for the good stuff :).
Last edited by restless on Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

PowerandtheGlory
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PowerandtheGlory » Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:44 pm

j.yank wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:46 am
Recently Pierre Waché wrote about Canada race:

"Because the chasis is aerodynamically unstable, we have to put more downforce. As a result, if the drag (air resistance) increases, it loses to its rivals in power, which makes it even harder on straight. And although low speed corners are fine, they are not as fast as the Mercedes AMG.

In other words, in Canada, we were forced to land on a compromise that was not half-strong and strong in any way. So to speak, only the Red Bull RB15's weakness has come out".

To claim that because Renault had one of the best top speeds in Canada they have superior engine is to claim that because last season Hartley did several top speeds for Toro Rosso then Honda had the best engine. Pure nonsense. There is not direct connection between top speeds and engine performance. Many other factors influence the speed, and these factors lay outside of the topic of this tread.
Are you suggesting that the Engine power doesn't have a direct connection to top speed...?

Yes drag, yes aero, DRS, engine modes etc but the engine will have a direct connection with how fast the thing is going.....

Its a shame if Max is running extra DF to cover off the car's weakness, but on the balance of the information the Honda engine doesn't provide the power at the moment.

Even Max is saying how things would look different if they had more power;

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vers ... t/4474037/

He's the guy driving the car?

My claim about Hartley was that last year TR were effectively a test bed for RB as soon as they confirmed they were switching to Honda, and Hartley was used for his WEC hybrid PU knowledge to help develop the car, rather than be a F1 driver, he would usually start every weekend with a new part and hence a grid penalty. i genuinely feel sorry for him, he is a talented driver picked by TR and spat out the other side..

I think Honda even thanked him personally as soon it was confirmed he wouldn't be retained.

I don't think i said Renault were superior? however they have seemingly improved things after a very ropey start. Whilst Red bull drivers are asking for more power.
“I don't believe in luck, luck is preparation and taking your opportunity” Ross Brawn

subcritical71
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:38 pm

hollus wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:28 pm
A reminder to everyone that this is the PU thread, one of the threads we try to keep clean(er).
Please keep car pace, driver comparisons, other PUs, etc out of this thread. There are the race threads, the team threads, the general honda thread, etc. for that.
Maybe we should start a thread and call it “Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software” that way the scope of the thread would be known and we can actually talk about the technical aspects of the Honda PU. Also people would know not to talk about aero, other PUs, drivers, other teams, and/or races (which all have their own threads). Oh wait.... :twisted:

This thread is way past being off topic.

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by hollus » Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:37 pm

Starting a "Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software" thread sounds like a great idea!
But I don't see any off topic posts lately, subcritical? Maybe because the mods have deleted a post every three hours in average for the last two days?
Seriously, no "faster than" posts in this thread. Thank you.
It is not white, it is not black, it is probably gray.

subcritical71
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:51 pm

hollus wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:37 pm
Starting a "Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software" thread sounds like a great idea!
But I don't see any off topic posts lately, subcritical? Maybe because the mods have deleted a post every three hours in average for the last two days?
Seriously, no "faster than" posts in this thread. Thank you.
It’s a thankless job, I know. Thanks!

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by _cerber1 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:21 am


Wouter
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Wouter » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:23 am


bosyber
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by bosyber » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:53 am

Well it makes sense for them, especially for the Red Bull/Honda combo, as currently they are fast enough to get to the top 6 even if they start from the back, but not consistently fast enough to fight for the win; only way forward is to improve, even if that might mean a penalty later in the year, if it gives them a chance of a win, that's the better choice.

For STR/Honda, since the midfield is quite tight, but therefore also capable of big swings through medium-high (5-8th) points positions, and performance quite track (and tyre window?) dependant, even a penalty in one race isn't a bad thing if it brings them more chances of going at those medium-high results, just behind where the Red Bull of Gasly is (ideally, from a Red Bull perspective, I'd say!), so a similar deal as with the main team.